Whitehorse, Yukon

Monday, May 9, 1988 - 1:30 p.m.

Speaker: I will now call the House to order. We will proceed with Prayers.



Speaker: We will proceed with the Order Paper. Are there any Introduction of Visitors?

Are there any Returns or Documents for tabling?


Hon. Mr. Penikett: I have a number of returns for tabling.

Hon. Mr. McDonald: I have for filing a document entitled “Yukon Housing Corporation Capital Project Manual”, and, due to its size, I will be filing one copy with the Clerk.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: I have for tabling responses to questions from the Supplementaries.

Speaker: Are there any Reports of Committees?



Hon. Mr. Penikett: I have for tabling a response to a petition.

Speaker: Introduction of Bills?

Are there any Notices of Motion for the Production of Papers?

Are there any Notices of Motion?

Are there any Statements by Ministers?

This then brings us to the Question Period.


Question re: Workers’ Compensation Board/office building

Mr. Phelps: Can the Minister of Government Services if it is true that Workers’ Compensation Board is going to build an office building in Whitehorse?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: The board is studying that proposition. It is looking into the cost effectiveness of building its own building as an investment in the  Yukon economy as opposed to paying rent. It is looking into plans to answer those financial questions.

Mr. Phelps: Is it going to be looking at building that is larger than its present needs would indicate it requires?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: I am in communication with the board, generally, about this issue. The consideration of the board is, but I emphasize that the decisions are not finally made, that the board is projecting the growth in need over approximately 20 years. It will build for the projected growth. In the interim they would probably rent the space to someone else until it is needed by the board.

Mr. Phelps: Is it intended that they will be competing with private entrepreneurs and leasing space in the open market?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: No. That is an issue that I have particularly discussed with the chairman of the board. It is the board’s intention and the desire of the government to not compete with the private sector in the rental of space.

Question re: Workers’ Compensation Board/office building

Mr. Phelps: Does that then mean that the Workers’ Compensation Board will be renting space to the Government of Yukon and only Government of Yukon?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: No. The Member is getting ahead of the considerations of the board. It is my information that the board has not decided those questions at all. It is looking into the cost effectiveness for the purpose of the best management of the Workers’ Compensation Board fund and the specific questions, like the one that is put, are not yet answered by the board.

Mr. Phelps: The Workers’ Compensation Board is going to build office space into which its operations would move, and there will be extra office space for lease. Is the Government of Yukon taking the position with regard to renting from the Workmen’s Compensation Board?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: First of all, it is not the Workmen’s Compensation Board, but the Workers’ Compensation Board, and the answer is: no, the government has not taken a position. The situation as of now is entirely hypothetical.

Mr. Phelps: Has the Government of Yukon indicated any sector, either private or some level of government, to which they would not want the Workers’ Compensation Board to lease space?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: No. There has been a general conversation between me and the chairperson of the board. We talked essentially about three issues, and I have already identified them, I think. Firstly, there is the cost effectiveness, because that is the bottom line from the point of view of the board and the government, which I am sure all Members will agree with. Secondly, there is the prospect of the Workers’ Compensation fund being, in a small part, invested in the Yukon. Presently, it is invested around  the North American continent, but not in the Yukon, and some portion of it could be, to the benefit to the territory. Thirdly, there is the issue about avoiding competition with the private sector.

Question re: Workers’ Compensation Board/office building

Mr. McLachlan: I have a question to the Minister on the same subject. Would funding for such a building come right out of the general revenue of the Workers’ Compensation Board? If that is so, would it also necessitate borrowing by the Workers’ Compensation Board, for which the indebtedness would have to be backed by the Government of Yukon?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: The present plan that the board is investigating is to take the funding out of the fund that they control without any borrowing, without any allocation of government funds, and to build a building. The present system is that the Workers’ Compensation Board pays rent, and the rent comes out of that same fund. It appears — and it is not finally determined, however — that it would be cost effective for the board to own their space as opposed to renting it.

Mr. McLachlan: Is the Minister saying the board can build and operate a building at less than the $16.28 a square foot the corporation is presently paying at the Royal Bank Building?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: The board has initiated a feasibility study into that question. The prospect is that, in the long term, it is cost effective, and it is for the benefit of the workers in the territory that the Workers’ Compensation Board operate out of owned premises, as opposed to leased premises, as do most of the boards in the provinces.

That final determination has not been made by the board.

Mr. McLachlan: If the Workers’ Compensation Board has enough money to be able to build its own facility, has any thought been given to reducing the rates of compensation that industry pays? That would be a benefit to everyone in the territory.

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: It is not really a sensible question. There are not surplus funds available. The board annually determines the rate of both benefit and levy on the industry. The question of whether to lease the office space required or to own it is an administrative property management decision that the board is in the process of making. It is completely independent of both the charges levied and the degree of benefits awarded.

Question re: Accommodation

Mr. Lang: With respect to the size of the civil service, the growth that has taken place and the need to rent space, along with the costs associated thereto, on Thursday, we had tabled in the House all the leases the government has undertaken. There were three new leases that appeared on the paper, to give us a total of $2,097,595 being paid for the purpose of renting space.

The Minister of housing indicated to us at one time that the Yukon Housing Corporation would not be growing. We have since learned that at least five more person years and who knows how many contract people are being hired by that corporation for the forthcoming year. I understand the Yukon Housing Corporation is moving over to the Nissan building for a cost of $85,800. Could the Minister tell us how much it is going to cost to renovate that particular office space to meet the requirements of the Yukon Housing Corporation?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: There is a great deal in the Member’s preamble that I would take issue with, but in order to keep the Question Period on track, let me simply say that whatever the leasehold improvements are, I will determine what they are and who is responsible for them, because at this point I have the information, but I do not have it with me.

Mr. Lang: This is not a new question; this is a question that I have raised for the last couple of weeks, and I would appreciate the information being provided. I have a further question, along the same lines, to the Minister of Government Services.

It is our understanding that most of the two floors of the Financial Plaza have now been leased for $147,000. What estimates of the cost of renovations were provided to the Minister when the decision was made to move?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: This is not a new question, either. The Member has asked it several times, and, in fact, I have answered it. I believe it would not be considered responsible if I would guesstimate, or even estimate. We are in the process of determining the exact cost. That determination, as of today, is not complete, but I will continue the discussion in the Main Estimates for Government Services. We are in that process today, and the discussion will continue.

Mr. Lang: This absolutely floors me. Is the Minister telling this House that Management Board made the decision to rent a facility for $147,000 and did not have cost estimates of renovation for that particular facility to meet the requirements of those departments? Is that what he is telling this House?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: No, that is not what I am telling the House. The Management Board was faced with a decision, and we had various projections of the costs made. I am not going to table or reveal Management Board documents here. However, there are clearly estimated costs, and the public has the right to know about the costs of the space. We will provide those as we know them. The process is that a decision was made to rent space. There was a tendering process for the space, and the costs are all consequent upon that process.

Question re: Accommodation

Mr. Lang: It is incumbent upon me to pursue this a little further. The government has made a commitment to rent some space for $147,000 for 12 months of the year. At the same time, it was provided with projections of what the estimated cost to renovate those facilities was going to be. I would like to know what those projected costs were. The people of the Yukon have the right to know on what basis this decision was made. We should be given, at least, the projected cost of the renovations, as opposed to playing hide-and-go-seek with the Minister.

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: There is no hide-and-seek here at all. I have explained what the process is. The government made a decision to call for tenders for the rental of a certain amount of space with certain characteristics. Those tenders were public. We did not know, at the time of the decision to rent the space, which space the tender process would identify as the most cost effective.

Those decisions were consequent upon the tender process, and I am giving the House, in the course of the Main Estimates where these questions have been brought up, and undoubtedly will be again, the up-to-date financial information. I am giving, to the dollars and cents, the cost...

Speaker: Order, please. Would the Minister please conclude his answer?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: the government.

Mr. Lang: Do I take it then that the costs were so high that the Minister does not want to divulge what those costs are?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: Absolutely not.

Mr. Lang: This is the type of difficulty that we have in trying to get answers from this Minister. In view of the fact that the government has rented another $230,000 to $240,000 worth of office space per year, can the Minister tell us how long the leases are for the Financial Plaza and the Nissan Building.

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: Yes I can. During the Main Estimates debate, I will. I will provide all of the dates for all of the leases as I have in the past.

Question re: Lottery regulations

Mrs. Firth: On Thursday, I asked the Minister of Justice if he was prepared to reverse the new rule on the lottery licensing regulations. He told us that he would be meeting with the committee to discuss it. Is the Minister prepared to announce that the system will go back to best serve the charitable organizations and volunteer groups who are using it?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: That is a loaded question. It is a “when did you stop beating your wife” kind of question.

The answer is that I met with the chairperson of the board on Friday morning and I determined that the facts of the matter are not as was stated previously by the Member for Riverdale South. She obviously unintentionally misinformed the House that in the past the board has met more often than once a month and licenses have been approved more often than once a month.

Speaker: Order please. Would the Member get to the answer?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: There is that possibility in the future for deserving cases.

Mrs. Firth: The Minister did not answer the question. I can table the memo that was sent by the Yukon Lottery Licensing Board, if the Member needs it, that presents the facts. The facts are that you must ensure your applications are in at the first of the month. Now the Minister is saying something else.

Speaker: Order please. Would the Member please get to the supplementary?

Mrs. Firth: Yes, I will. I want to know if these groups, which have the impression that they have to have it in for the first week of the month, are going to be able to successfully apply at other times than the first week of the month? There have already been groups that have missed out.

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: The memo that the Member refers to is a good memo, and I would encourage her to table it. In fact, perhaps I will. It is public information and there is absolutely no need to table it.

The answer is that it is prudent administration and good administration to advise groups to apply for licences in advance as the Member has stated.

Speaker: Order please. Would the Minister please conclude his answer?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

Mrs. Firth: He did not answer the question again. We will take it — and the charitable organizations will take it — that the answer is no he will not have the rule reversed and everyone will apply with this rigid, new orderly system that the Minister talked about. We take it that the answer is no, and I would like to have the Minister stand up and say whether I interpreted that correctly, yes or no.

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: The Member opposite has not interpreted that correctly. She is not asking questions here, she is attempting to score political points, which is fair game, but the interpretation that she has made is not good public policy and is, in fact, wrong.

Question re: Lottery regulations

Mr. Lang: It bothers me because my colleague is in the same position that I was in previously. We never received answers to any of our questions. It was either “tomorrow”, or he just did not answer the question. Is the Minister going to revise the policy directive that was sent out to allow organizations to apply for licences any time during the month?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: If the Member will read Hansard, he will discover that I answered the first question with a policy answer, in the general sense.

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: Is the Minister going to revise the present policy directive for applying for a lottery licence to allow an organization to apply any time during the month for such a licence?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: It is not a memo set out by the government. It was a memo set out by the Lottery Licensing Board. I discussed the facts and the policy with the board and I have described how the situation has existed in the past and will exist in the future. It is impossible to make a statement about what absolutely will occur or will not in the long term future.

Mr. Lang: This side is confused so the public is probably confused, as well. Could the Minister tell this House whether or not the policy is going to be revised to allow organizations applying for a lottery licence to apply at any time during the course of the month?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: The revision of that memo is specifically up to the board, and not to me. I have explained the general situation, as far as it is in the control of the government. The specifics I have answered as specifically as I am able.

Question re: Lottery regulations

Mr. Lang: I guess that the Minister is not getting quite specific enough for me or for any of the listeners, I am sure. I would like to ask the Minister again: is the Minister going to have the policy revised in order to permit any organization to apply for a lottery licence at any time during the course of the month?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: I have already answered that. I guess that what I should do is to repeat the answers again and again. I have answered that, in the past, that in fact has occurred. In the future, there is a possibility of that occurring. However, it is prudent management, and it is good advice to all organizations, to apply in an orderly way at the beginning of the month.

Mr. Lang: These are volunteer organizations, and they may not have the bureaucracies the Minister seems to think they have. There is obviously a concern out there. What is the policy of the government? The Minister undertook last week to go back to his people. Is the Minister prepared to direct the individuals involved to allow an organization to successfully apply for a lottery licence any time during the course of the month? All I want is a yes or no answer.

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: The Member asks what the policy of the government is and then demands a yes or no answer, which is impossible under the terms of that question. The policy of the government is to follow the policy that was proposed to the Legislature and passed in the Lottery Licensing Act. The Member ought to know that that policy is determined by that act. The government is following that act, and the power to make those specific decisions...

Speaker: Order, please. Would the Minister please conclude his answer.

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: in a board.

Mr. Lang: It was a significant day in everybody’s lives who were involved in lotteries. That particular day was April Fool’s Day. Once again, we are being played for the fool. I just asked a very simple question, and I am asking for a yes or no. Is the Minister prepared to have the policy revised, which would permit organizations applying for lottery licensing to be able to apply on any working day during the course of the month?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: I have answered that that specific decision is within the power of the Lottery Licensing Board to make. It is not within the power of the government to make. The Legislature has passed that act, and has delegated the decision-making powers about licences to a board that is independent for that purpose. The government is following the law.

Question re: Lottery regulations

Mr. Lang: You can see how difficult it is. You ask a simple question, and you get a complicated answer.

It is fairly important for those organizations to know where they stand. Is it the Minister’s position that an organization applying for a lottery licence must apply in the first week of the month? Otherwise, it would be very uncertain whether or not they will be successful in getting a licence.

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: I have answered that now three times. It appears the Members opposite want me to make an unpopular answer. I have answered it, and they do not appear to understand that the question is answered.

If you will permit me, Mr. Speaker, the answer is that, in the past, that has occurred. There is a possibility for it to occur in the future. It is the prudent administration and management of the board that it occurs once a month for the vast majority of decisions.

Mr. Lang: I feel that we should have the Chairman of the Lottery Commission here not the Minister of Justice. Perhaps then we might even get some answers. I see a total abdication of responsibility being exhibited here. I am asking a very simple question on behalf of volunteer organizations out there who do not necessarily know what day of the month is satisfactory to the bureaucracy to receive their applications.

Can the Minister tell this House if it is the government’s policy that if a lottery licence is not applied for in the first week of the month, that the organization stands a very good possibility of not getting the licence to proceed with the particular function?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: It is not the “chairman” of the board. It is the “chairperson” of the board. It is not an abdication of responsibility; it is following the law that was passed by this House that that power is in the board. That is the central fact that Members opposite are refusing to recognize. It is not a matter of procedures satisfactory to the bureaucracy. The administration of that board has set out procedures to follow, which are generally good ones.

The government policy is contained...

Speaker: Order, please. Would the Minister please conclude his answer to the supplementary question?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: There were four questions, and I am answering the fourth now. The government policy is to follow the provisions of the Lottery Licensing Act that spells out the powers of the board.

Question re: Education/Yukon College/Faro

Mr. McLachlan: Could the Minister of Education advise the House when Management Board is going to make a decision about the funding approvals required for the Yukon College  presence in Faro? I am talking about the space for the coordinator of the programs.

Hon. Mr. McDonald: The decision will be made shortly. I have had discussions with people in Faro in the last week on the suitability of providing office space for the community campus committee coordinator, whether the space should be located outside of the recreation complex, in the school or in another location.

Mr. McLachlan: I am pleased to hear that it will occur shortly. We have been going around in circles for about six months on this one. Is the Minister aware that the coordinator, who is in a temporary location in the recreation centre, has been asked to vacate because that space is needed so that the recreation complex may get on with its summer programs?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: Yes, I am aware of that. That is the reason why concern has been expressed recently about the need to secure an office for the community campus coordinator. The government is trying to determine what space is available right now in Faro, including the school, to determine if there is a possibility for an alternate space to be found for the community campus coordinator.

Mr. McLachlan: Has the Minister seriously considered the offer of the town offering a location on the lower part of the day care centre as part of the upgrading program there? Do I get from the tone of his answers that it is no longer on the drawing board?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: That space will be considered along with other available space. If there is room in the school it would be very appropriate to put the coordinator in the school. In situations like this, we try out best to accommodate the interests of the community campus committee in a particular community who have expressed fairly firm opinions about where the classrooms should be established and the coordinators located.

While I am on my feet, the Member for Faro also asked a question last week about the stability of foundations for the two Ross River units and suggested they were both sinking. I am informed neither are sinking, both are stable and solid. There is essentially no truth to the allegation that they are sinking.

Question re: Clean-up program

Mr. Phillips: I have a question for the elusive Minister of Justice as well.

Since Clean-up Week is May 14 through 20, and the Minister of Community and Transportation Services has just issued a press release regarding initiatives his department is taking to clean up Yukon communities, I was wondering if the Minister of Justice would do his bit by having inmates from the correctional centre participate in the clean-up program, in particular cleaning up the winter’s accumulation of litter along the highways near Whitehorse? Will he make that commitment?

Speaker: I would like to remind the Member to please use parliamentary language and refrain from using unparliamentary language.

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: The initiative of using the correctional crew to clean up litter is an old one. In fact, it was under my initiative that they cleaned up litter under the escarpment and along the riverbank here in Whitehorse. As to other parts of the highway, I will take that under advisement.

Mr. Phillips: What I am suggesting to the Minister is that the snow was off the ground more than a month ago and corrections could have been out before now. Many tourists are already arriving and the streets and roads are quite full of litter. I would ask if the Minister would consider adopting a policy that year round, when they have the time and if it fits into the programs, they go out to clean up. It would help repay their debt to society by cleaning up the litter on the streets and highways of the Yukon.

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: I understand the question. It is the same question that was put in the first question as a representation. I have answered it.

Speaker: Time for Question Period has now elapsed. We will proceed with Orders of the Day.


Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: I move that the Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve into Committee of the Whole.

Speaker: It has been moved by the Minister of Justice that the Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve into Committee of the Whole.

Motion agreed to

Speaker leaves the Chair


Chairman: Committee of the Whole will now come to order. We will recess for 15 minutes.


Bill No. 50 — Second Appropriation Act, 1988-89 — continued

Department of Education — held over

Chairman: The Committee of the Whole will now come to order.

We will return to the Department of Education, the Advanced Education Branch that was stood over.

Hon. Mr. McDonald: Today I have provided the information to Members about the statistics that had not been incorporated into the Budget Book. Now the Members have the kind of information that was historically contained in the Budget Book for this particular Branch.

Mrs. Firth: I was provided with the information at a 11:45 a.m. today. I would like to ask the Minister again why it was not in the Budget?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: For one reason or another, there was a failure to put the information in. The failure was not intentional; it was simply not in the Budget Book. I agree that it should have been. The information is now on the table.

Mrs. Firth: I would like to know whether or not the Minister even looked at his budget prior to it being brought into the House. Surely he must have noticed that it was missing. Did he not check it to see that his budget was complete, before he came into the House to discuss it publicly?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: The information was known to me and I was not aware that it was not printed, but I did know that the information did exist, and discussed that information with department officials.

Mrs. Firth: Why did he not look at the Budget Book and tell us that this was not in? Why did I have to ask him where it was?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: I am duly thankful to the Member for Riverdale South for having picked up this particular mistake. I do not know how we can thank her enough. The information ought to have been in the book and it was not in the book. The information was used to help to determine budget allocations. The information unfortunately was not printed.

Mrs. Firth: I have one final comment to make. The Minister only compounds the problem with his sarcasm. This is absolutely irresponsible and displays his incompetency. It is noted on the public record that his sarcasm has just compounded that problem.

Chairman: Is there anything further under Advanced Education?

Mr. Lang: I asked for a projected final cost estimate for Yukon College, including furniture, equipment, landscaping, and all the various things that have yet to be completed, to give us an idea of what Yukon College is going to cost. Does the Minister have those estimates?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: That is a capital item, and this is an Operation and Maintenance Budget.

Mr. Lang: Last time we sat, the Minister said quite graciously that he would get that information for us. I am asking these questions here because I do not want to take up time in Question Period, but if he wants me to I will.

The Public Accounts Committee has come out with a document that indicates some questionable financing on that facility. What is this facility going to cost? We do not have a final estimated cost. Can the Minister give us that figure? That is not too much to ask because it concerns Advanced Education and why we are going ahead with a lot of these programs.

Hon. Mr. McDonald: We would have been going ahead with these programs irrespective of the construction on the new college. The question the Member is asking is a capital question. I will be more than happy to prepare myself to answer it in Question Period. There is a lot to say about what has transpired to date beginning with the purely fictitious, laughable press release that was issued in 1985 about the projected costs.

This is a capital item, and I have an Operation and Maintenance Budget in front of me. I will be more than happy to make the information available. I am here to discuss this Operation and Maintenance Budget, and I am prepared to discuss it in detail.

Mr. Lang: If the Minister does not have the information now, I accept that. When can we have the information?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: I do not see any change in estimates from the time that the Public Accounts Committee did their review. I will undertake to have the projections within the next couple of days.

Mrs. Firth: I asked the Minister last time we were discussing this budget about the equipment and furniture that was going to be moved to the new college. Has the Minister got the inventory list that we discussed? Is he prepared to give that to us now?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: No. That too is a capital item, as I indicated last week. It is as every bit as difficult as I thought it would be to compile an inventory list. I will put everything down on paper and provide a list to the Legislature. It will take time. When it is ready, I will make it available.

Mrs. Firth: Could the Minister tell us what the projected operation and maintenance costs are for the Yukon College for this next fiscal year?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: I did read out the incremental increased costs for the Yukon College on Thursday. There was a projected cost increase of $321,000 that would be an increase beyond what is budgeted for the facility operations. This includes utilities, staff increases, et cetera, and security. That is the cost for the new facility, plus the $46,800 for food services and other related operation and maintenance costs.

Mrs. Firth: When the Minister give us this cost, is he simply saying that this is a $321,000 increase in addition? I would like to know what the operation and maintenance costs are now, besause the public is interested in what the total aNnual operation and maintenance costs are going to be for the new Yukon College. The old Yukon College is still going to be utilized, so you cannot say expenses are going to continue that were spent on the old Yukon College because that building will be utilized by government. So the total operation and maintenance costs of the new Yukon College are going to add a new cost to the budget, not just a $321,000 addition to what is already there. Could we have the figure of the total annual operating and maintenance costs of the new college?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: As I indicated Thursday, the old Yukon College will not be used by the Department of Education. The costs associated with the old Yukon College will not be borne by the Department of Education, except insofar as the department will utilize space for dormitories for public school students.

To give a general sense of the costs of the existing college, the utilities are $337,000. I indicated an increase of $321,000 for about $650,000 or more. I am sure there are other smaller amounts, and I will ask the department to round it out for a more accurate figure of the Department of Education expenses.

Mr. Nordling: Can the Minister make it simple for us? We are going to have a $50 million college campus on the hill. We may have a gymnasium, and we may not; there is an arts centre to go in. What projection has this government made to maintain that complex on an annual basis? It seems like a fairly simple figure. I do not want to know how much oil we are burning at the old college.

Hon. Mr. McDonald: I am providing Members with an incremental increase beyond what is currently provided for the maintenance of the college. The general budget estimates for the whole Yukon College are shown on page 109 at $7,220,000 which includes programming.

I would hope programming would be undertaken irrespective of whether or not there was a new college facility. There are costs associated with operating the old college, and I am coming forward with projected incremental increases to the costs to run the college in the future.

The estimates for 1988-89 show what we project to be the cost of the college for that year. I have indicated exactly what the costs should be to add up to $7,220,000. I can go through it in detail if Members wish.

Mr. Nordling: No, I do not want to hear about the $7,220,000 in detail. I would like to know if that is going to be the annual cost to operate the new college up on the hill? The new college is going to open in September, and these estimates go until March 31, so we are not dealing with a full 12-month period. What will it cost to run that college on an annual basis?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: Perhaps the Members could break it down for me. Are they talking about utilities only? Are they talking about the grants in lieu? Are they talking about staff? Are they talking about teaching staff?

The global figures are right here, so if they want to break it down, I can break it out, and add up the information to give the Members the information in the way that they want to hear it.

Mrs. Firth: The Minister’s department was making projections for operation and maintenance costs for that department. If the Minister does not know what is included in that, he can talk to his officials; they know what is included in it. That is the information that we want: how much more is it going to cost, and what is going to be the total cost to operate and maintain the cost projections that are done when new capital projects are built for that building on an annual basis. I am sure that the Minister’s officials will be able to get that information together for him, give it to him, and then he can bring it to the Legislature.

Hon. Mr. McDonald: If Members  can identify exactly the costs that they would like to see covered, I am perfectly prepared to provide the information. If I cannot, then, as per usual, I will indicate that and get back to them, as I always do, with the information that is required, so that they can have the comparative information that they would like to have.

They have not been able to specify what it is that they want out of the equation. I have indicated what the global figures are. I can break it down by program. I can break it down in any old way they like, but if they want some other kind of information, or if they want any sort of computation made, then I will get the department to provide it.

Mr. Nordling: I would like to know all of the costs associated with the operation of the new Yukon College on an annual basis. Understand that I am not asking for a breakdown into minute detail of this $7,220,000, because I do not think that it is representative. I want to know what the projected utilities are on an annual basis, what the projected staff costs are on an annual basis, and whatever else the Minister has, to give us a grand total of the cost of that Yukon College on an annual basis.

Hon. Mr. McDonald: What do they think the $7,220,000 is for, if it is not for the Yukon College? This is 1988-89 — what is it for if it is not for the Yukon College?

Mr. Nordling: Obviously, the Minister is being willfully blind, and perhaps he could get his officials to read the debate and to try to answer our questions. This $7,220,000 is for Yukon College, from April 1, 1988, to March 31, 1989. The college does not open until September 1989, so there are about four months in which we are not paying the full costs.

Hon. Mr. McDonald: It is fallacious to say that the college does not open until September. There will be activities at the college in June. Are the Members talking about running the Whitehorse campus, minus the programming? Are they talking about the costs associated with the operation and maintenance of the capital project?  Do they want a global annual figure for all activities associated with Yukon College?

Mr. Nordling: So that we do not go on forever, I would like to see the global costs. There was obviously life cycle costing done when the college was being planned, and we would like to see those figures.

Hon. Mr. McDonald: Life cycle costing was not done prior to this government taking office. The decision was made to proceed with the college before any plans were made to proceed. There were no hints, not a word or a whit, of what the costs of the operations of the college would be after the initial decision was made to proceed with the college.

Given that, I will undertake to give what we now project to be the total ballpark figures for the Yukon College. I will even help the Members and break it down into Whitehorse campus and all other areas.

Chairman: Is there anything further on Advanced Education?

Mrs. Firth: Seven pages of statistical information was provided for us by the Minister. He mentions twice in this information that there are going to be three new occupations designated for Yukon certification. Can he tell us what those three new occupations are?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: Yes. They are sprinkler fitter, saw fitter and filer and appliance repair.

Mrs. Firth: Could the Minister tell us when that designation will be done?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: It is projected to be done in this fiscal year. It could be done any time. There is a lot of preparation to do and to get a trades advisory committee together if one is considered necessary.

Mrs. Firth: In the explanatory notes, the department indicates that there is going to be a significant reduction by Canada Employment and Immigration in the number of occupations supported in the industrial-based training programs and that the number of participating employers has been reduced. Can the Minister tell us if they have identified specific money for that program, and how much?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: Could the Member direct my attention to the page?

Mrs. Firth: It is on the second page.

Hon. Mr. McDonald: Is the Member referring to the number of participating employers and the number of trainees under the Canada Yukon Small Business Training activity?

Mrs. Firth: Yes.

Hon. Mr. McDonald: Does the Member want to know what the character of the activity is? What specific information does she want?

The program is expected to provide for a total of just around $75,000 for the Canada Yukon Small Business Program.

Mrs. Firth: On the same page, the notes indicate that there is going to be some training in the renewable resources area that will be increased for the 1988-89 year. Can the Minister tell us where, and what that is for?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: At this point, I think it is the Wilderness Training Program, but I am not certain about it because it is a Special ARDA application, but I will check.

Mrs. Firth: I will look forward to getting that information back.

In the Human Resource Consultative Services Program the government talks about how it is primarily used by the band management workers and that there is limited use by the private sector. Can the Minister tell us how many bands have benefited from it and how many people from the private sector have applied and benefited from it?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: I can give a breakdown as to which bands required the consultive services. I am not sure I can give it right now, but I can give it. I do not have a list of which bands have been consulted but I will undertake to provide that information.

Mrs. Firth: Can he tell us how many of the private sector employers used it?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: Advanced Education does provide a report every year as to its activities. It provides an administrative statement and a detailed report of who made use of the service. I do not have the annual report in front of me, but it does break out in specifics the activity that each individual person undertakes in the branch. If the Member wants to know how many or whom, I will get the information.

Mrs. Firth: Yes, I would like to have that information.

Last year, in the statistical information the government talked about how the current trainees in the Apprenticeship Program would be completing their programs and that it would create an opportunity for a significant influx of new trainees into the program, yet they are not predicting it will happen. They are predicting apprentice activity will be very light this year. Can the Minister tell us what happened that the prediction went by the wayside?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: It is anticipated that, as new workers come into the Yukon and become registered, there would initially be an increase. There is an anticipation the increase will not be shown. As individuals go through the program itself, there will be some dropping off. That is an educated guess. There will still be every attempt to try to encourage more apprentices to be taken on, either through financial incentives the department provides, or the in-house apprenticeship the government provides and also through the assistance the branch provides in helping companies establish training programs.

We do not anticipate there will be any leveling off, in terms of interest in apprenticeship, but the actual activity will probably level off. I mean by that that people will still be keen to go through an apprenticeship program as one of the only real, good and solid training programs for industrial workers around. At the same time, because we felt initially a significant interest over the course of the last year, we do not expect bumper years every year. We expect it to level off. What we have here is an educated guess.

Mrs. Firth: With respect to the in-house apprenticeship training program, the government is indicating they are going to be carrying on with this program. How will the trainees be chosen?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: I understand people make application for the in-house apprenticeship program. I am certain there is a standard procedure for determining who is going to be selected for the program. It has been going on for some time now, as the Member knows. As indicators show, we anticipate we will be holding the line with respect to the number of apprentice positions that are offered. We do recognize there is going to be increased economic activity in the Yukon, and there is not as much need to increase the expenditures in this program as might have existed in the past where there would be very little private sector activity. We expect private sector activity to pick up the difference, and then some.

There is a shortlisting and interview process and, depending on the apprenticeship itself, there is a procedure that has the PSC hiring the apprentice in accordance with departmental requirements, and the successful apprentice is taken on for the duration of the apprenticeship.

Mrs. Firth: Does the Minister have any policy in place to ensure that, once an individual starts one of the in-house apprenticeship programs, they can successfully complete it, and it cannot be stopped part way through the program?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: My understanding is that the apprentices were taken on for the duration of their apprenticeship until they become certified, at which time they either seek and compete for employment in the government system, or they look for work elsewhere.

Mrs. Firth: So the Minister is saying that those kinds of guarantees are in place when the individual first starts the apprenticeship?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: Yes, if they are called in as an apprentice under this program.

Mrs. Firth: Concerning the page that discusses employment training programs — the third from the last page — particularly where we talk about the number of participating employers in the programs that the government is assisting, along with the federal government, can the Minister tell us when the information is made known to the businesses that have applied whether or not they have been successful in receiving funding for their summer students?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: I am not exactly sure what the Member is asking. The programs are advertised well in advance. In the Challenge 88 program there were advertisements in the papers at the end of March as to how to make application and what the terms of the application to the Challenge 88 program were. The department estimates fairly well in advance. The procedures for determining the successful applicant are basically the same as they have always been, to my knowledge. I do not recall any policy change at all.

Mrs. Firth: Can the Minister tell us what the procedure is for announcing to the successful applicants that they are, in fact, successful applicants, and that the funding has been approved?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: My understanding is — and I will check this with the department — that applications are received, the management committee determines who is going to approved under the program, and letters — perhaps a telephone call, too — are sent out to the persons whose applications have been approved.

Mrs. Firth: Does the Yukon Territorial Government have a member on the management committee who assists with the approving of the applications?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: Yes, but at this point I do not recall who it is. It is a joint program; the committee is made up of Canada and Yukon representatives.

Mrs. Firth: Is that information kept confidential until the business is notified? In other words, no one would have any access to it, other than the management committee, and then the business person when they were notified, either in a telephone call or in a letter?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: I do not know what the policy is concerning the notification of persons under this program. I will check.

Mrs. Firth: If the Minister could check that and bring the information back, I would appreciate that.

I have one more question about this statistical information. It looks like the number of post secondary grants that are being applied for is remaining fairly stable; however, the costs have increased by a considerable amount, about $90,000. Can the Minister explain to us why that is happening?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: The amount of the grant will depend on how many persons apply for a full year and how many apply for a partial year. The value of the grants have increased from $2,700 to $3,100 to reflect certain increased costs, such as air fare costs.

Mrs. Firth: Can the Minister give us a break down. I would like to see if there is one particular reason for the increased costs. When they made the decision to increase the grant what impact did that have? How much of the $90,000 increase would that represent?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: I am going on memory. A number of things make up the grant. The first and largest is the air fare, the next is the tuition, which varies, the book and living allowance components. The largest component would be an increase in air fares.

Mr. McLachlan: Will they refuse student grants for courses offered here, for which people used to go to universities in Regina, Toronto or Montreal?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: At this time there is no change to the policy with respect to how grants are given out. The Act is fairly specific as to who qualifies for a grant and the course may be offered at Yukon College as a university transfer or industrial training. If they qualify for the grant because of the years they put in the Yukon school system that person can still go to another college and take an identical course elsewhere and still receive that grant.

On Administration

Administration in the amount of $158,000 agreed to

On Research and Planning

Research and Planning in the amount of $2,163,000 agreed to

On Human Resources and Career Development

Human Resources and Career Development in the amount of $2,282,000 agre debate on the Supplementary Estimates, an individual breakdown of capital, maintenance and pre-engineering. To avoid a long list, I will table that information in writing.

I was asked about the precise state of the work order forms. The forms were changed, as was promised to the Public Accounts Committee. The effective date of the change was May 1, and a copy of the new form has already been forwarded to the Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

I was asked in the  Supplementary Estimates about the purchase of desks, and I was also asked about the desk for the Liquor Corporation. At the time of the management change, the Liquor Corporation purchased from Government Services: a desk, a credenza, a bookcase, a filing cabinet and a conference table, for a total of $5,383.

The government bought 20 mid-management status desks and two executive desks in 1987-88. These were purchased from local manufacturers. We also bought 91 factory-made desks shelves — these are primarily computer work stations. The total is 113. This is not 113 new positions or new person years. They are new desks, the majority of them being replacements for existing furniture.

I was asked about the Watson Lake workshop. The building costs were $296,000, and the equipment costs were $22,000.

I was also asked if New Era Engineering had made application for funding by the Yukon Energy Alternatives Program for the Fraser Camp. The answer is: no, as of May 3 there had not been an application for funding.

Mr. Lang: Would the Minister give us the cost for the 22 desks?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: Yes, I will get that.

Mr. Lang: I have a question about the infamous renovations that the Minister seems to be loath about letting the general public know about and the type of splendor one is going to work in in the Financial Plaza. I guess the Yukon Housing Corporation will provide statistics for their new housing space.

What are the renovation costs going to be for the rental accommodation that has been taken over by the government?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: I do not know. Projected estimates are $20,000, but that is a rough estimate.

Mr. Lang: The rough estimate is $20,000. That is what I was asking in Question Period. It is amazing how he can blurt it out here, but we cannot do it if we have anybody watching or listening to the proceedings here. It is a cat and mouse game. If you do not inform the public they do not know what is happening.

I would like to move on to value added and the proposed policy revisions that we have here for the Yukon Business Incentive Policy. Can the Minister update the House with respect to this?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: I have answered that question half a dozen times this sitting. I will answer it briefly. There is a proposed discussion paper before the Contractors Association. I sent a copy to the Member. That is the answer.

We are in general debate on Supply Services and there are no dollars in Supply Services for that item.

Mr. Lang: In deference to this side, we did leave other areas under the understanding that information was going to come to the House. If the Minister is going to take that tact we will not clear any areas until we get all the information. That does not benefit debate, nor the movement through the budget.

We had a lengthy debate with respect to contracts and getting a time line for tendering purposes, which the Minister agreed was a good idea. Could he tell us whether or not the department had a further look at that to see when we could get a projected time line from the other departments for the major contracts?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: Yes. I have discussed that and it would take an awful lot more work to obtain the precision that is asked for. We are attempting to do it anyway. I have no more specific information than I gave on Thursday and when it is available I will table it.

Mr. Lang: Just to conclude that, are people presently working on it?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: Yes.

On Administration

Administration in the amount of $121,000 agreed to

On Purchasing

Purchasing in the amount of $401,000 agreed to

On Queen’s Printer

Queen’s Printer in the amount of $992,000 agreed to

On Asset Control

Asset Control in the amount of $103,000 agreed to

On Transportation and Communication

Mr. Lang: What are the estimated airfare costs for the total government?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: I will provide that. I do not have it here.

Mr. McLachlan: I have the same question under Transportation as I had with the Minister of Education in relation to the Community and Transportation Services. Vehicles that are under Government Services are fueled with their own credit cards at service stations in Whitehorse and in outlying communities, is that correct?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: Yes.

Mr. McLachlan: How many vehicles are in the Government Services pool? Is it 213? Has the government ever looked at its own fueling situation to see how much could be reserved if we had our own location for fueling vehicles? I am referring to the Whitehorse ones. I realize it is too hard to do in the communities.

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: I am confident I am correct in saying that the Department of Community and Transportation Services already does that, but Government Services does not. It is something to look at, and we will look at it.

Mr. Lang: If the government is going to get into the fuel business, I would be very concerned about the government getting involved in that type of service, when a number of businesses have been built up around servicing and leasing government and various other private organizations. I am not looking for a response from the Minister. I am just voicing our concern on this side that I think it would be a major step backwards.

Transportation and Communication in the amount of $899,000 agreed to

On Central Stores

Central Stores in the amount of $215,000 agreed to

On Records Management

Records Management in the amount of $1,172,000 agreed to

Supply Services in the amount of $3,903,000 agreed to

On Property Management

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: I will introduce the explanations for the various lines, especially the two with substantial increases. Under administration, there has been an elimination of the charge backs to the client to capital and the client departments for a percentage of the director and director’s secretary salary. That is not an increase in dollars in the total budget, but the elimination of some of the red tape, or administration costs.

As well as that, both of those positions were vacant for a portion of last year, and we are expecting the costs there for this year. For building engineering, this is an increase of three person years, which is identified at the bottom of the page. These three person years are for the stationary engineering services at the new Yukon College.

On Administration

Administration in the amount of $247,000 agreed to

On Building Maintenance

Mr. McLachlan: I have a question in relation to the heating system of the Andrew Philipsen Law Centre. When the government signed the contract to purchase heat, are the BTUs purchased at the company’s facility, or are they purchased at the entry point into the building?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: At the entry point into the building there is a metre that measures the heat that comes into the building. It is, as of today, non-operational. The metre is operational but the exchange of heat is non-operational, as of today.

Mr. McLachlan: Does that it has been shut down for the summer, or does it mean that it has not functioned yet? What does the Minister mean?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: There are technical problems that are not the fault of the government, but the fault of the contractor supplying the heat. This problem still needs to be overcome.

Mr. McLachlan: The Minister advised that that system also heats the domestic hot water, or is that a separate system?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: It is all from the same heat source.

Mr. McLachlan: The reason that I asked about the purchase point of the heat into the building is that I understood that to be the case when the Minister made the press release. On documents tabled here before us, however, there is a figure of $84,000 to connect Klondike Central Heatings to the government building. Also, in Legislative Returns filed here today, it is shown that at least the loan portion was only $128,000 to start with, but it cost $84,000 to connect it. I was under the impression that the company was going to lay the lines underground and provide the valve connections at the Andrew Philipsen Law Centre. Is it now that we had to pay the entire cost of laying the heating lines in the ground and the connections to the building?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: No, that is not the case. There were costs for the government involved in the structures within the building, but the building was built with a pipe intake through the foundation and to the property line. The other costs of the pipe were borne by the private contractor.

Mr. McLachlan: What is the nature of the technical problems that keep the system from operating?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: I am not an engineer, but there are two problems. There is a low voltage electrical current through the company’s connecting apparatus, which is not compatible with the electrical properties of the building. There would be damage done to the building’s electrical if there was a connection without solving that problem. The second problem, which is probably more expensive to remedy, is that the private contractor does not have the necessary permits to commence operation.

Mr. Lang: Is it ever going to become operational? What permits is the Minister talking about?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: The permit is the around the capacity of the boiler. I do not know the details of it. It is not a government problem per se. The expectation that I have is that it will be operational. The building is extremely efficient, especially at this time of the year. We will not be requiring any heat as of approximately now until approximately October because of the collection of heat in the atrium. In the fall, if the private operator does everything that is required, we will have an operating system.

Mr. McLachlan: I am concerned because there are people in other situations in the Yukon who are watching this one to see if it will work. They may pattern boilers after that one. Could the Minister responsible for Protective Services tell us why the permit has not been issued for the boilers? What is wrong?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: It is a capacity problem. The boilers are safe for certain purposes, and the owners wish to use them for other purposes. In a nutshell, and I apologize to the engineers because this is oversimplification, the boiler is not big or strong enough to supply heat at the desired quantity.

Building Maintenance in the amount of $2,141,000 agreed to

On Custodial

Mr. Lang: I gather three of the person years here are required for the new college, is that correct?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: There are no new person years under this line. There are three new person years under the next line, building engineering. The increase in costs here is entirely attributable to the actual costs of looking after the space both owned and leased.

Mr. McLachlan: Who would be responsible for the security and night patrol on the new student residence at Yukon College? Will that be Education or Government Services?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: It will be Education.

Custodial in the amount of $979,000 agreed to

On Building Engineering

Mr. McLachlan: Are the three new person years designed to get the plans out for tender sooner? What will they do?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: They are stationery engineers and will be looking after the mechanical systems at the new Yukon College.

Mr. Lang: Are there any other hidden costs we are not aware of that are directly attributed to the running of the college that are not in the Department of Education Main Estimates so, therefore, are not seen as a figure that is attributed to the cost of running it?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: The costs of fuel and electricity will be with Education. The only one I am aware of is the stationery engineer function. The reason for that is that there is a substantial community of interest among the stationery engineers of the three modern buildings: this building, the Philipson Building and the new college. It is prudent management to have those stationery engineers under a common administration to spell each other off and communicate with each other on problems.

Building Engineering in the amount of $424,000 agreed to

On Buildings and Security

Mr. McLachlan: Who was the lucky recipient of the one person year in the government main building when the night shift security was eliminated in this building?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: The specific change was the secretary for the assistant deputy minister.

Mr. McLachlan: Is it not true that that is an experimental thing and will be looked at again in six months time to see if it is working, or how many people got locked in and had to spend the night in the building?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: Yes, that is true.

Mr. McLachlan: If we have to put the guard back on, does the assistant deputy minister lose his secretary?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: The Management Board will probably consider those questions.

Buildings and Security in the amount of $3,336,000 agreed to

Property Management in the amount of $7,127,000 agreed to

Chairman: Are there any comments on recoveries?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: I was asked a question relevant to page 137 about the cost of the statutes the Queen’s Printer produces. The cost of the consolidated statutes is $145.

Mr. Lang: There is one other question I had with respect to space, as we are leaving this particular department. I asked for the duration of the lease for the Financial Plaza. The Minister all of a sudden seems to have a lot of information at his fingertips that he could not provide during Question Period. Perhaps he could let the people know at this time, when all is quiet.

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: It is three years, commencing May 1, past.

Mr. Lang: Is that appropriate for the Yukon Housing Corporation, as well?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: I do not know. I will come back with that information.

Mr. McLachlan: With respect to the lease statistics, why is the figure for the leased square metres in Faro so high in relation to some of the other communities?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: The Faro recreation centre is included. The Town of Faro is the lessee for the Faro recreation centre, and there is a payment for that.

Government Services in the amount of $15,174,000 agreed to

Department of Health and Human Resources

Chairman: Department of Health and Human Resources, page 138, general debate.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: I am pleased to introduce debate on the Operation and Maintenance Budget for the Department of Health and Human Resources. This budget has been developed to continue implementing the new objectives, policy and program priorities established by this government for Health and Human Resources and Social Services. Our goals in equality and quality of life for all Yukoners are carefully reflected in the department’s objective to reduce lack of opportunity due to health or social conditions and to enhance the potential and well-being of all Yukoners while recognizing and respecting age, gender, culture, ability and community differences.

First, it is essential that policies and programs serve the goals of equality, quality of life and community development. Through this budget, I am introducing a variety of improvements in the services available to residents of rural Yukon such as relocation of a social worker to Carmacks, expansion of family counselling services for Watson Lake.

Second, it is essential that prevention and promotion be given priority to continue to divert scarce resources from treatment and costly after-the-fact interventions and services. Through this budget, I am expanding programs such as: administering the Community Action Program of the National Drug Strategy in the Yukon; expansion of the Family Life and Health Promotion service for the establishment of an additional position on a term basis; child development, which helps the learning and development needs of young children to be identified and addressed prior to entering the school system.

Third, it is essential that services complement the natural support systems of family, neighbours and organizations at the community level. Through this budget, we are strengthening various services such as: home care, which helps people remain in their own homes or reduces stays in hospitals; family support, which helps families keep together rather than have children come into the government’s care or to have them return home sooner; increased financial support for community services provided by non-profit community agencies such as Yukon Family Services, Yukon Women’s Transition Home, the Child Devnisterial Advisory Committee on Substance Abuse; completion of the Yukon Child Care Consultation Process. I believe that significant progress is being made by this government on the social program priorities for Yukoners. We are working together to build a better Yukon.

This budget contains many new initiatives and improvements, both big and small. I would like to highlight some of them on a program-by-program basis. Health initiatives - additional personnel resources have been provided to improve the safety and quality of nursing home services provided at Macaulay Lodge at $179,000 while we conduct an operational view of the lodge.

Hospital services provided to Yukoners on an in-patient and an out-patient basis will be supported by the infusion of an additional $1,268,400. An additional term position has been established to support expanded audiology services, provided by the Communications Disorders Clinic. An additional term position has been established to support family life and health promotion services.

Medical services provided in the Yukon and out of territory by physicians will be budgeted at higher levels, reflecting population growth and changes in the mix of health needs, with an additional $633,000. Health transfer planning will continue with the negotiation of hospital transfer as a priority.

Social service initiatives and an evaluation of the first child welfare pilot project involving the Champagne Aishihik Indian Band will be completed. Financial support will be provided to meet increases in the number of licensed day care and family day home spaces and low-income Yukon families who are eligible for day care subsidy payments.

A variety of small but important measures will be implemented in rural social services, including expansion of the family support program, reallocation of a social worker to Carmacks, and increased training opportunities for regional staff. A review of vocational rehabilitation needs will be conducted and increased support provided for the rural safe home services currently provided in Dawson City, Watson Lake, and Carmacks.

The first full year of services from the newly-established childrens’ treatment group home in Whitehorse will be funded, increasing our investment in Yukon-based services. A pilot project to increase the level of family counselling services available in the community of Watson Lake will be implemented.

The Child Development Centre will receive a significant increase in financial support for its programs. The Yukon Family Services Association will expand its family counselling services with support from this budget.

More Yukoners will be able to benefit from the homemaking and home nursing services provided through our home care program, due to a budget increase of $165,000.

Funding for the Pioneer Utility Grant and the Seniors Income Supplement will be increased by over $100,000, to be meet the growing number of eligible seniors.

A new rate reform package for social assistance will be introduced this year, including provisions for food, shelter, clothing, and incidentals, at a budgeted cost of approximately $400,000.

Planning for repatriation of six disabled Yukoners from the Woodlands Institution in the Province of British Columbia will be undertaken. Additional financial support will be provided to the Yukon Women’s Transition Home Society to establish a child care support service. Day programming for young offenders and youth in conflict with the law, including life skills, educational and work experience activities, will be established. An expansion of community-based alternative measures programming for youth offenders will be supported.

The initiatives that I have described are but the tip of the iceberg. There are many more improvements in the quality, depth, and range of health and social services to point out. I will provide additional information to Members during detailed debate of our Main Estimates.

Mrs. Firth: The Minister was going to provide us with an organization chart prior to the debate. Has she got that for us now?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: The official who had it rushed down and left it in his office. We can get it.

Mrs. Firth: I will have to wait to get it.

I also asked the Minister for some information about the chronic disease list. She provided the House with a legislative return. I had asked the information in the context of new people being added to the list, not new categories of chronic diseases as the Minister’s department has answered.

I wonder if the Minister could tell us how many new people have been added as a result of the additions to the chronic disease list?

The government had made some predictions that we were going to require $167,000 more for the additions. I would like to know how many dollars have been involved in that expansion of the chronic disease list from prior to the new diseases and the expanded diseases being put on the list?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: On page 159 we have a list of registrants for 1986-87. We are projecting 1,600 for 1987-88 and 1,700 for 1988-89.

Mrs. Firth: The four star numbers that are given are not really an accurate number of actual individuals on the list. I cannot determine from the information that the Minister has given whether it has doubled or tripled. This simply indicates the separations, the technical term used to identify discharges and transfers of patients from hospital facilities.

I want to know how many people were on the chronic disease list prior to the government’s change of policy and how many are on it now.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: I am sorry that I did not get that straight. I was not entirely sure what the Member wanted and have provided information through a legislative return that did not answer those questions. That information will not be that hard to get and hopefully by the time we get to Health Services we will have it.

Mrs. Firth: I would like it, and I would also like the additional cost and whether the government predictions were right on or whether they were out in any way. I believe the prediction from the ministerial statement that was issued when the chronic disease expansion was discussed was somewhere in the neighbourhood of $167,000, and I am sure it was more than that.

I would like to ask the Minister some questions about the ongoing negotiations for the transfer of the hospital. Last year the Minister presented me with a statement that indicated that the cost of the replacement of the Whitehorse General Hospital was going to be some $30 million, the long-term care facility was going to be $3 million, and equipment acquisition, site development, professional fees would be $7 million for a total cost of $40 million. Is that still the target figure, and are those the figures being used in the present negotiations with the federal government?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: We have information in order of the different branches, and we are having to look through our briefing books to find that information. As of March  1987, the estimated capital cost for the extended care facility is $4.5 million. The annual operating cost based on shared facilities, site and services with the Whitehorse General Hospital is $1.9 million, including a projected 39.1 person years.

Mrs. Firth: I believe that is the same information the Minister has given us two years in a row in response to questions in the Capital Budget. I see the official agreeing with that.

If we could talk in a general sense, I understand from the Minister’s announcement that she has just given her department a mandate to go ahead and proceed with negotiations with the federal government for the hospital transfer. I am looking for the figures they are negotiating. Are we still talking about $40 million in total? It must have gone up, if the long-term care facility is now at $4.5 million instead of $3 million. Could they give me a general idea what the total package is?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: There have been figures batted around with respect to the hospital. There was a figure of $30 million. There have been figures batted about, because we do not have a total design of what the new hospital is going to be, or what is included. There have been numbers as high as $45 million, but we do not have anything official right now as we do not have a complete design of the new hospital. There is a problem right now in regard to the extended care and the hospital being built together. Whether it is going to be built together or whether we are going to proceed with the extended care is something that has not been entirely decided yet.

Mrs. Firth: What is this government’s negotiating position on behalf of Yukoners with the federal government, with respect to the transfer of the hospital services?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: As I mentioned in my ministerial statement, we will be looking to the transfer of the hospital, and will be looking for a commitment of funds from the federal government with respect to the construction of a new hospital. That is our position right now. There will be a meeting next week between our officials and their officials.

Mrs. Firth: I see the federal government as being in a rather awkward position with respect to knowing what this government wants, if we do not have a figure we are attaching to this negotiation. Are we just saying to the federal government that we want them to pay for it, we do not have a design, but we want them to pay for it, and that is all there is to it? It does not sound like a very solid bargaining position, from our point of view.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: It does not sound like it when you put it like that, but it is very solid when you start from a beginning. You have to proceed with negotiations with them. There are a lot of other things you have to take into consideration prior to coming up with the cost of a hospital. We were looking at a hospital that was going to be built. At that time, the figure we had was $30 million. We were looking at the possibility of that going to Treasury Board, as I mentioned before in the House. We found out that did not happen.

There will be negotiations, but there are a lot of preliminary things that have to be done with respect to that. We cannot just go to them tomorrow and say, “Here is what we want from you; a $45 million hospital and a transfer in return.” She knows that much more has to be done.

Mrs. Firth: It was this government that made the announcement, not I. I am trying to get an idea of what this government’s representation is to the federal government, much like what we did with the Minister of Renewable Resources when it came to the transfer of fisheries. I am glad to hear the Minister saying we are starting from the beginning because if we were starting from any other position I would be worried. I am worried now because I do not see what the position is that has been presented on behalf of Yukoners, therefore, I do not see any imminent transfer. I do not want the public to be led to believe it is going to happen right away when no position has even been put forward other than they pay for the hospital and we will take over the services.

I would like to ask the Minister a question about the person years within the department. I notice it is the same as last year at 183.8 person years. However, I hear frequently from people involved in social and health services that there are a lot more people working within Health and Human Resources. The Minister herself said today there was $179,000 for additional personnel. Can the Minister explain where the additional personnel are?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: We have some auxiliary positions that we use, sometimes in juvenile justice, and we also have some term positions. I do not have the exact figure, but I will get it if the Member wants it.

Mrs. Firth: I would like to know the number of term positions, auxiliaries and casuals. Perhaps those positions could be indicated in the context of the organizational chart so we can get an understanding of how many people are working within that department.

The Minister made mention of an additional $1.4 million for hospital services in this budget. Did I hear that correctly? Could the Minister tell us what that is for?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: That is for the service for in-patient/out-patient services and reflects the rise in the population of the Yukon.

Mrs. Firth: So it has nothing to do with the over expenditures that the Auditor General identified in his report?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: No.

Mrs. Firth: I take it then, doing a quick calculation, that between the escalated costs for hospital services that the Auditor General identified and the $1.4 million that this government has built in, the costs of providing hospital services to Yukoners is increasing remarkably. Is that correct?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: There has not been that large an increase. The increase is generally around four or five percent.

Mrs. Firth: I would have put it at more than that because I am sure that the Auditor General’s report identified well over $1 million. We have another $1.4 million here — that is in excess of $2.5 million, probably closer than $3 million, just in the last year or two. I would see that as a much larger increase than what the Minister has indicated.

Chairman: If it is the wish of the Committee, we will take a short recess?


Chairman: The Committee of the Whole will now come to order. We will continue with general debate on the Department of Health and Human Resources.

Mrs. Firth: The Minister mentioned something about the new social assistance rates and that they had identified $400,000 in this budget for that. Can the Minister tell us when the social assistance regulations are going to be completed?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: I do not have that information at hand right now. I could get it for her and bring it back. Everything is in the works right now. Things are being put together in regard to the social assistance rates. I will find that out.

Mrs. Firth: Can she tell us if the new regulations are written?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: They are not completely written yet.

Mrs. Firth: Can she tell us how they knew to identify the $400,000 for it then?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: An evaluation was done of all of the rates that are in existence right now. The amount of money that was allocated to certain parts of the social assistance plan was increased. A review was done of other pieces of legislation, including rates for other provinces. Food basket prices and all sorts of other things were looked at. An awful lot of information is on hand and we have projected the amount of what the increases are going to be, along with all of the information that we had and the number of people who are on social assistance. A lot of information was gathered in order to put together this kind of review.

Mrs. Firth: Perhaps the Minister could tell us when the new regulations will be ready. Are they going to be ready for this sitting of the Legislature? Will she be bringing them into the Legislature?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: No. They will not be done before we adjourn this Session.

Mrs. Firth: Is the $400,000 identified to cover the new regulations for this whole fiscal year? Are these new rates being paid to social assistance recipients?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: They are projected as a July start date.

Mrs. Firth: Will the regulations be ready sometime in July?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: They will be ready before that.

Mrs. Firth: When?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: They will be ready in June. I cannot give her an exact date in June.

Mrs. Firth: Are people who are receiving social assistance being paid a new rate, or are they being paid the old rate?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: They are being paid the old rate.

Mrs. Firth: Is the evaluation the Minister talked about something that could be given to Members of the Legislature for their information?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: We could make that available. I do not think we can do it as quickly as she would like it to be, but it could be made available.

Mrs. Firth: I would not mind having it before the new regulations come out. I would certainly appreciate a copy of the new regulations in June or July, when they will be implemented.

The Minister has said there are more people benefiting from the Extended Home Care Program, and they have identified $165,000 in this budget to add to that program. How much is the total program now? What phase of implementation of the program are they at? Last year, the Minister was talking about it being phased in.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: The total amount we have for this year’s budget is $450,391. We are still identifying individuals who do require that care. We already have a number of persons on contract who are working with those people. We have done a lot of extensive research into how we were going to do it. There have been discussions with the band in regard to their adult care program. We have identified there are some problems there, and that we would not try to duplicate a service they were already providing. There are a number of individuals in the communities and, also, in town who have been identified and to whom we will be providing assistance. As the year goes by, there will be other individuals who will require that service.

Mrs. Firth: The Minister mentioned something about the Extended Care Program replacing requiremeAt this point in time, we cannot provide the Member with any kind of savings, because we just have not done that kind of evaluation yet. There will, however, be a time when this program will be evaluated, and those figures will be available.

I would like to suggest that at some time within the year that we will look at those costs to find out if there are savings from hospital costs. That was the general idea, among other things, when we put this program together.

Mrs. Firth: I would be very interested in that information. Perhaps, when the department has done its analysis of it, the Minister could provide me with a copy of the analysis so that we can see what is happening.

I asked the Minister which phase the department was at in the Extended Home Care Program, and she did not answer. Can she tell me what phase it is at in implementing the total program?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: We have been identifying individuals who required care, and I thought I had given her that information. We are giving assistance to individuals right now, and we will be providing care to as many people as meet the criteria throughout the year. We are past the stage where we were trying to put a program together, but it is just a matter of increasing the number of patients who require assistance. That assistance is not only for those individuals who come home from hospitals. It is for others who require it as well for so many hours a week.

Mrs. Firth: The Minister mentioned the evaluation of the Child Care Program with the Champagne Aishihik Band. Can the Members of the Legislature have a copy of that evaluation?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: The evaluation is still ongoing. I am not sure when it will be ready, but I can certainly look at that possibility, however. I have had discussions with the people doing the evaluation, and I am looking forward to it myself. It could very well be available.

Mrs. Firth: I will follow up on that then.

Does the Minister have the comprehensive review of Macaulay Lodge yet?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: That is not completed yet. We expect we will have that review by next month some time.

Mrs. Firth: The reason I ask is that when I was at the Yukon council on Aging meeting on April 22, 1988, a department official who was there said it would be ready next week with recommendations so I thought perhaps it was ready and we could have a copy of it. Could we get a copy of that operational review study when it is ready next month?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: I would have to take it under advisement. There is a good possibility it may become a working document.

Mrs. Firth: Can the Minister tell us who did this review and how much it cost?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: We do not have that exact information here. We will bring that information back.

Mrs. Firth: I will have to wait.

The Yukon Family Services Association has had quite a number of studies and consulting done by the EB Lane Consulting company. Did the department pay for those consulting services? If so how much did they pay for them?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: We did fund the Yukon Family Services to do a strategic plan. The report is a report that belongs to Yukon Family Services.

Mrs. Firth: I believe my question was “did the department pay for the strategic plan or did Yukon Family Services”? I know there was a few hundred thousand dollars spent on this strategic plan, and I am assuming that the government had to give some assistance.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: The amount that was given to the Yukon Family Services was about $10,000, but we will get the exact figures. It was their study being done.

Mrs. Firth: The Minister is saying that of all the EB Lane Consulting contracts that I saw in the contracts listing for health that only $10,000 came from the Minister’s department?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: Yes.

Mrs. Firth: Could the Minister give us some idea how the services are going to expand, and how much government involvement there will be in the expansion of those services for the Yukon Family Services Association? Could she give us some idea what the plans are?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: We have that under a separate item with more information to it. One initiative is to be using part of their services to do counselling in Watson Lake. It was identified to us that something down there was needed in the form of counselling services. At this point in time, that was what was available to us. We have identified a certain amount of money for that purpose.

Mrs. Firth: With respect to this strategic plan, the Yukon Family Services Association has gotten from it so far a counselor for Watson Lake. Could she give us some indication of what else we are looking at? If we have spent some money on the strategic plan, and she seconded one of her senior officials at a top salary dollar to give them assistance, perhaps she could give us some more information about the new strategic plan.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: The $14,000 we identified for Watson Lake was not included in the strategic plan. We do have a copy of it. In order to table a copy in the House for the Member, we would have to get permission. What that did was identify some of the programs within the agency and how to improve upon some of them to deal with counselling, teen problems and things like that. Their report would identify a number of those initiatives. This is sort of a reorganization of some of the things in their agency.

Mrs. Firth: However, the government is going to be giving them additional funding for some of the initiatives in the strategic plan. Is the Watson Lake counselling for $14,000 on top of the money the Family Services now gets from the Department of Health and Human Resources, as well as the $40,000 that has been given to top up the salary of the seconded individual?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: The $14,000 is additional money, but it is contingent upon whether or not the Family Services will provide that service. There have been discussions in regard to that, and there is a good possibility that that will be done. The money that is being paid is already included in the money we provide them. That $40,000 is part of the overall contribution we make, and is included in it as it would be to pay any wages.

Mrs. Firth: That is not the way that I understand it, from the discussions. I understood that the government was giving an additional amount of money to pay the salary of the seconded individual. The Minister announced twice today that part of the new initiative of this budget was the Watson Lake counselling services. Now she seems to sound as if that is not a fait accompli, that perhaps we will not have that counselling service in Watson Lake. The questions is: “are we going to have it, or are we not?” If we are, what is the Yukon government’s contribution, and what is the contribution that Family Services will make?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: The services will be provided; they will be. There have been discussions with Family Services and the possibility is there. It is quite positive that it will be done by them and it is something that we are not concerned will not happen. There are some things that are happening within Family Services right now and they are beginning some new programs. It is to be hoped that somebody will be available who will be able to go to Watson Lake to provide that service on an interim basis.

Mrs. Firth: Is this a permanent position, then, or is it interim, like the Minister said? Is the Watson Lake counselling service going to be provided? Is there any permanency to it? I get the feeling that the Minister said that they are going to go there on a interim basis. I am having difficulty establishing whether or not it is an absolute fact that this is going happen and how long the job is going to last. Is it just some temporary measure or is it something that is going to happen and be there for ever and ever.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: I cannot tell the Member whether or not it is going to be there for ever and ever, because there may come a time when that kind of service is no longer needed. We do not know. We have included, however, an additional $14,000 for Family Services to provide that service, and the service will be provided. Whether or not it will be done by Family Services, I do not know, but I am very optimistic about that possibility. We would look at it next year to find out whether or not the counselling has been successful, and if it has and is still needed we would look at the possibility of doing it again. Watson Lake is not the only community that is asking for this kind of a service. It is an ongoing request from many communities.

Mrs. Firth: I will just conclude, then, that the government may provide that service and they may be doing it in other communities, as well, if the request comes forward. I will wait to see what happens when the Yukon Family Services participates, or does not participate, in the program.

Can the Minister tell us why the department is going to be renting almost 5,000 square feet of extra space? On the list that the Department of Government Services gave us, Property Management Branch, Whitehorse leases, as of April 18, 4,862 square feet in the Financial Plaza? Can the Minister tell us what that is for?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: The Health Branch will be moving there from this building. The room here will be provided to Education. We will be transferring 14 person years from Health.

Mrs. Firth: How many square feet are going to be vacated here? Will the rest of Health and Human Resources be here? Do 14 people need 5,000 square feet of space?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: I cannot give the Member the space they are in now. I can only say that it is crowded. If the Member were to walk in there she would see that as well. More things have to be there besides the 14 person years. I am hoping that that amount of space will enable them to work better, because it is easier in pleasant surroundings.

Mrs. Firth: I have walked through there. It was crowded before all the auxiliaries, terms and casual positions were there. What we are going to have to wait for is the person year complement that will be brought to the Legislature by the Minister. I wish I had it before we proceed with the budget so I would have the information necessary to ask the questions regarding the increase in person years and the growth of the Department of Health and Human Resources.

I would like the Minister to bring back some indication of how much space they are vacating that Education is moving into, if they would be so kind.

Is the person year complement for the young offenders being increased with the construction of the new facility? Can she give us an indication of how that new structure is going to impact on the existing staff and structures that are in place to accommodate young offenders?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: We will be reassigning individuals. At this point in time, I cannot see that we will be hiring any additional staff. The assessment centre and detention building will be closed, and people will be moving from there. We will actually be reassigning.

Mrs. Firth: What will be happening to the physical units, the assessment centre, 501 Taylor and 5030 5th Avenue? Are we going to keep those physical units?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: I am not sure what they are going to do with it. Health and Human Resources are not going to keep it.

Mrs. Firth: Could the Minister be more specific? They are not keeping any of them in Health and Human Resources? Does that mean all of them will become property of Government Services? I believe that is what the Minister said.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: The Assessment Centre will no longer be our responsibility. It will possibly be given to Government Services to do as they choose. We will not be using it anymore.

Mrs. Firth: Will they be keeping the 501 Taylor Street residence and the 5030?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: Yes.

Mrs. Firth: The staff that is presently at the assessment centre will accommodate the new young offenders facility. They will simply be reassigned to that facility, and we will not need any new staff. Is that correct?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: The staff that will be moved will not necessarily be that of the assessment centre. There is a rotation of individuals in different jobs. We will probably be reassigning different person years to different facilities. That is something that we will look at in the next year.

Mrs. Firth: Can the Minister tell us how these employees will be involved in those reassignments?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: I cannot tell her how they will be involved, but they will be. There is no way that the department would make those changes without involving the staff. It is very important that we do that.

Mr. Phillips: I would like to ask the Minister a couple of questions about young offenders, in particular 5030-5th Avenue. How long has that building been vacant?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: I do not know the exact date. I believe it was in March. It depends upon the number of young offenders we have in our care. In some cases, when there are not enough to fill  both, we use just one. Usually it is 501 Taylor Street that we use then. Things do occur at the building, but there has not been anything going on there for the past month or so.

It will, however, be used again. It will not sit vacant very long because there are a lot of new things happening. Hopefully, we will not have a lot of extra children in our care, but some of the young offenders who have been sentenced through the courts are in the detention building.

Mr. Phillips: I raise this issue because, since 501 Taylor Street opened up, there have been very few, if any, at 5030 5th Avenue. It makes me wonder why we had to buy 501 Taylor Street, 5030 5th Avenue was capable of handling the number of children for the times. Now it seems that since we have 501 Taylor Street, we are taking all of the kids out of 5030 5th Avenue and moving them to 501 Taylor Street.

Can the Minister bring to the House tomorrow the figures for the capacity of both residences, and a monthly breakdown of the number of children who were in each facility? That would give us an idea about whether or not we actually need the two buildings.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: I can bring that information back to the Member. We have to have the two buildings. At the time we bought it, we needed it. We did not buy it just because there was an empty place down the road, and there are a lot of other things that have to be included in a young offenders open facility, involving training and all sorts of other things. At the time we bought it, it was needed. We had over-crowding in the detention centre. We sometimes had as many as 18 kids there at a time. That was the problem we had.

When you base that kind of information on the purchase of something new to enhance a program, then you look at something that is crowded as opposed to something in which it is more comfortable to look after the young offenders in our care. It was needed, and it will be needed again. We will not be using the detention centre after the other facility is built. There will be new programs that will be implemented, and we will be needing the space in both those buildings. I can bring him back information.

Mr. Phillips: I would appreciate that. I had the opportunity a few times in the last couple of years to visit 5030 5th Avenue. Each time I visited that establishment, there were only two or three children there, and they had room for many more. There was not any over-crowding. In fact, I know at the time the Minister bought 501 Taylor that 5030 5th Avenue had vacancies in it. That is the concern I raise, that there may not have been an actual need for a new building, and it was just possibly a dream of someone that bigger is better. Now, we have two homes, and one is very elaborate. We have one of the homes sitting vacant and, when we toured the other home last week, there were five or six young offenders in a 10 bedroom home.

I am concerned that we are paying a lot of costs for these other homes, in terms of operation and staff, et cetera, and there may not have been a need to buy 501 Taylor in the first place.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: I have already explained there was a need for 501 Taylor. I am pleased when we can go into a facility and find only three or four kids at a time, but there could be another month when there are ten kids, and you do not want something that is over-crowded. For instance, if we over-exceeded the number  in one building, we would have a problem.

Those two buildings will be used. In the summer, you may see they are not used all the time, because we have a number of summer programs that our young offenders are involved in. They are out in the wilderness camps and Annie Lake, et cetera. So, you will see some houses that are empty but, certainly, in the fall and the winter, most of the time they are full, and I am glad when we do not have a lot of young offenders in our care.

There have been a lot of things happening with young offenders in the Yukon in the last little while. There are young offenders in communities who are getting bored and are starting to get into trouble. We may have twice as many young offenders in our care tomorrow.

Mr. Phillips: If we have no one there now, what happened to the staff at 5030?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: They are over at theoffenders program works. The staff is not doubled up anywhere. We use auxiliaries every once in a while. I do not know how many vacancies that we have right now but I can find out and let the Member know.

Mrs. Firth: I would like to know if the organization chart was brought down and if we could get a copy of it for this evening. I would also like to have, for this evening’s debate, the person year complement. I do not think that we are asking for anything unreasonable. It is all information that would be necessary to make this budget up. I would also like some of the statistics on the chronic disease list and the dollars involved there, as well, for this evening.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: We could try to provide all of that information before 7:30 p.m. tonight but I cannot promise that everything will be here.

Mrs. Firth: I will wait until 7:30 p.m. and see. I asked the Minister a question about the green paper on child care, and she has provided me with a Legislative Return saying that the kits, in total, cost $14,380.40 for the design, production, and printing of the 4,000 kits.

Where did the Minister get that money within her department, since it was not identified in last year’s budget?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: We offset that amount within the department from another program.

Mrs. Firth: The Minister, then, is saying that they had extra dollars, and so they decided that they would spend it on that. Can she tell us if that reallocation of funds was a decision that was taken to Management Board, or did the department simply do it within the department?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: When we were looking for money for the child consultation panel we agreed that we would find money within the department to cover some of the other needs that we had at that time. We did go to Management Board for the additional money for the panel and were able to find more money within our department.

Mrs. Firth: So they only went to Management Board for the $48,000 for the panel to travel, and this was reallocated within the department. Can the Minister tell us where these packages were printed, since there is almost $700 for freight and handling?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: If they were printed in town  we would have to provide the information by 7:30 tonight.

Mrs. Firth: Perhaps they could tell me what the freight and handling is for. I would presume they were printed outside and that is why there was $700 worth of freight and handling to get them here. There is some shaking of heads. We will wait until 7:30 to get the answer to that as well.

Mr. McLachlan: When we get scheduling problems like advertising for the Faro doctor, from which particular area would this budget money come?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: That was done very quickly and we offered the services to pay that amount. It came out of the Health Branch budget.

Mrs. Firth: I see that one of the clinics in Whitehorse is investigating the purchase of a mammography machine. A couple of days after our questioning in the Legislature, I understand that the deputy minister wrote a letter to the deputy minister in British Columbia, and the Minister followed up later with a letter. What was the result of that communication? Are we going to be able to benefit from the possible purchase of a mobile mammography machine from British Columbia, and has that been communicated to the clinic that is considering the purchase of one for Yukon women?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: I did receive a letter from the Minister of Health for BC. He indicated to me that their mobile clinic had not started, and when it did, he would seriously consider including the Yukon. I will table that letter in the House.

Mrs. Firth: Has the Minister communicated that information to the local clinic that is considering purchasing one for $100,000?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: We had a meeting with members from that clinic, and they talked about the possibility of purchasing that machine. There was no discussion with regard to what BC was doing. If they require that information, I would be pleased to send them a copy of that letter.

Mrs. Firth: With all due respect, I would have thought the Minister would have already done that. The Minister never sent me a copy of that letter, nor indicated any communication with the BC department, nor that she had an answer back, so I do not imagine that the medical clinic would have had any communication either. I do not think they would write a letter asking the Minister what letters were sent or what was heard. I would have thought it encumbent upon the Minister to inform them that this communication had been made and there was some potential that we would be able to benefit from that program.

My concern is that we will have two now, and perhaps the money could have been spent on something else. I want to know what the Minister is doing to ensure we are not duplicating services.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: There was no definite decision from BC. There were possibilities. She is talking about a private clinic that is considering purchasing a mammography machine. The answer still is that they are considering it. I am a little reluctant to talk about private clinics in here. I suppose their decision will be based on what the BC government is doing and, at this point in time, they are not doing anything. The clinic would want that kind of information and would be looking for it. In our discussions with them, I was not entirely sure what it was they were going to do. They were just discussing that possibility, and there was no decision made that if BC did not do it, they would. They will get a copy of the letter. I will send one to the Yukon Medical Association and have them pass that information on to the clinic.

Mrs. Firth: Our concern is that something is done to address this issue as soon as possible. I do not want to be talking about it another year from now and, still, nothing is being done for the women in the Yukon who could be benefiting from those kinds of services.

Has the Minister made any representation to the federal government for the possibility of additional nursing services in Faro and, also, whether she has made any representation for something like mobile phones for the nurses in that community, so they are allowed more flexibility when they are on call.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: I have some information on the nurse complement in Faro. They had discussed the situation and appeared to have everything in hand, so that it was not necessary for us to seek additional person years or an additional nurse. I do have the information, and I have not made any representation to the federal government, but the work and any plans at all are being done in cooperation with Medical Services here and my department.

Mrs. Firth: I am concerned about the people in Faro who seem to see some potential in that kind of a recommendation. I believe the committee that was formed to help recruit another doctor endorsed that concept and that idea. Could the Minister make some efforts to get in touch with those people and see if that is a possible solution? I would like to make the representation that she discuss it with her federal counterparts, as well.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: The department does have representation on that committee. Somebody is representing me at this point in time. We are involved in up-to-date discussions with Medical Services in regard to the Faro issue. Everything appears to be in hand. If I were to phone my counterpart in Ottawa, I may be jumping the gun. We are up-to-date, and I would like to thank her for her suggestion.

Chairman: Is there any further general debate?

On Policy, Planning and Administration

Hon. Mrs. Joe: This line item consists of one supporting activity called Administration, as noted in the Main Estimates on page 141. The Administration activity includes the deputy minister’s office and the Policy and Administration Branch, including the Policy and Planning Unit, the Personel Information Service Unit and Finance Operations Unit. I can give the Member a breakdown of the funding if she would like that.

Mrs. Firth: I am just taking a moment to look at the organization charts that were presented. Under Administrative Services, which would come under Policy, Planning and Administration, there is a box that says Director, Special Projects. What exactly is that? Is that included under this budget allotment?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: That is a position that is vacant. The person formerly in the position was transferred to another department. The special projects are things like land claims and anything that is over and above the administration of the department. It is anything that we may have to deal with that would be of interest to Health and Human Resources.

Mrs. Firth: How long has that position been vacant?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: It has been vacant since February, and we are trying to fill it.

Mrs. Firth: I am assuming that the government is recruiting for this position. Is that a correct assumption?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: Yes, we have been recruiting for this position.

Mrs. Firth: What exactly would the special project under land claims entail? What has this individual been doing in the time spent in this area?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: In the land claims settlement there are certain things that this department has to be involved in. We have to work in cooperation with other departments that deal with social programs, because social programs will be a part of the agreement in principle. You cannot come to any kind of an agreement unless you have something to work from. We are putting together some kind of a social development policy for land claims.

On Administration

Administration in the amount of $1,335,000 agreed to

On Community and Family Services

Chairman: Is there any general debate?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: This program has a number of initiative included in it. One of them is the Champagne Aishihik Child Welfare Pilot Project and an evaluation is being done. A budget for the day care programs has been expanded. The child care consultation process is included in this. The increase in the family support program is also included. Additional measures to increase the participation of Indian people in child welfare matters will be taken, including establishment of a term position to pursue more placement options in the native community for children in care. Financial support for the Child Development Centre and Yukon Family Services will be increased to assist in the expansion of these important, community-based services.

Mrs. Firth: Can the Minister tell us what the total budget is for the Child Care Services including subsidies and assistance to the centres?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: The total that we have is $758,000 for the 1988-89 budget.

Mrs. Firth: Can the Minister tell us what the Yukon Family Services Association will be getting in this budget?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: The Yukon Family Services will get $122,900, and $10,000 for the pilot Family Counselling Services in Watson Lake.

I gave the Member a figure of $14,000 earlier for the Watson Lake initiative, but it is $10,000.

Mrs. Firth: Is the $40,000 that is going to supplement the salary of the seconded individual included in the $122,900?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: We will be paying his salary and they will be paying us $40,000 back.

Mrs. Firth: I am sure in the press release it said they were getting an additional $40,000 for his salary. Perhaps we could get some clarification.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: It is a bit complicated. We, in essence, will be paying his whole salary but the contribution of $40,000 will be made to them and they will pay him out of that.

Mrs. Firth: The government is going to pay the salary of the individual, as before. Is that correct?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: Yes. If there was someone else hired as an executive director for that agency, that person would have been getting the $40,000.

Mrs. Firth: The Yukon Family Services Association received a letter from the Minister, and it talked about incorporating your contribution of $40,000 per annum to the secondment plan for the individual, and our contribution of the difference in his salary and benefits, as well as our further commitment of $40,000 per annum for family counselling services.

Could we get a breakdown of the budget that is going to be given to the Yukon Family Services Association?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: The secondment arrangement for Mr. Findlater will be cost shared by the association and the department. Yukon Family Services will contribute the $40,000 they currently spend for senior counselling and administrative services. The department will contribute the difference. Consistent with government’s common policies, it will be funded through the personnel budget, as Findlater remains on the government payroll for technical reasons for the duration of his secondment. The $40,000 would be a contribution, even if Mr. Findlater was not going to be doing that job. It would be paid to somebody else who would have had that position.

Mrs. Firth: I do not quite understand why we are doing it that way. There is still $40,000 that the Family Services Association should be getting that is unaccounted for. Since it is just about 5:30 p.m., perhaps we could get some detail back after the break, indicating how this financial arrangement is going to work.

Chairman: The time now being 5:30 p.m., we will recess until 7:30 p.m.


Chairman: Committee of the Whole will now come to order. We will continue with Community and Family Services, general debate.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: Is someone over there the acting critic?

Mr. Nordling: We will take any information that the Minister has to give us.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: I have just received information with regard to chronic diseases. It is not in typewritten form, so I cannot send a copy over.

To answer the Member’s question, prior to February 1, 1987, there were 11 diseases eligible for coverage, and there were 590 registered recipients. After February 1, 1987, with the new program, there were 47 diseases eligible for coverage and 1,325 registered Yukoners as of March 1, 1988, including 260 seniors.

Mrs. Firth: So it more than doubled. Could we have the dollar figures as well?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: For this year it is $421,000. We do not have a year-end figure.

Mrs. Firth: I would like to know what last year’s figure was. I believe it was $369,000 in the old budget debate. They were adding $167,000 to that, which brings it up over $500,000. They were only predicting it to cost $421,000 when the list has more than doubled? It does not make sense.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: In the Main Estimates last year we budgeted $369,000, but that is not an up-to-date, year-end amount.

Mrs. Firth: Perhaps the Minister could tell us how much they spent in total last year on the chronic disease program, because it does not make sense that the figures of people who are now eligible would double, but that the money would go down. That is what it looks like to us, right now.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: This is the third year that we have run the chronic disease program. It has increased from the first year to last year. I do not have all of those figures with me. I am not sure whether or not the Member wants them before the night is over, because if she does, I am not going to be able to get them.

Mrs. Firth: I asked this question and I got a Legislative Return that did not answer the question. I guess that all that I can do is to ask the Minister to bring a written accountability of the costs for the chronic disease program now, with a comparison of what it was before, what it was at the numbers of 509 or 590 — whichever it was that the Minister said — and the comparison of what the cost is now, for 1,325 people who are on that list.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: I can provide her with that information but it will not be tonight.

Chairman: Is there anything further under general debate?

On Program Management

Hon. Mrs. Joe: I have already read activities of Program Management. They include: the continued emphasis on the development of prevention activities for families and children; special initiatives to involve the Indian community in Indian child welfare; improvements of services to rural communities, including the expansion of the safe home program; relocation of a social worker to Carmacks, and; a pilot family counselling project for Watson Lake; a tripartite review of family violence programming and priorities involving the Departments of Education, Justice, and Human Resources will be completed and action taken; a completion of the child care consultation process; development of new policies and programs reflecting the priorities and needs as identified by Yukon families, children and service providers.

Negotiation for a federal-territorial child care agreement will proceed once federal legislation is in place. A review of policy directions and service delivery approaches for family and children’s services will be initiated.

Program Management in the amount of $146,000 agreed to

On Family and Children’s Services

Hon. Mrs. Joe: The Family and Children’s Services are provided by a unit based in Whitehorse and by regional offices throughout the territory. The Whitehorse unit operates out of offices in the Royal Centre Building in Whitehorse. They consist of a supervisor, seven social workers, a support staff shared with and accounted for under Activity Management Placement and Support Services.

The service is responsible for child protection, investigations, assessment, counselling, support, prevention, information, and consultation services to prevent the incidence of child abuse and neglect. Family services includes counselling, group work and treatment services for unmarried parents, persons affected by family violence and families experiencing parent/child conflicts, and support for community-based family service.

The budget includes salary and benefits for the eight personnel, as well as telephone, materials and supplies, advertising, travel, contract funds for fee for service, family support workers and homemakers, family violence program development and coordination, together with financial contributions for the Yukon Family Service Association.

The second half of the family violence program development project being conducted in conjunction with the Departments of Justice and Education will be completed and recommendations for new or modified programs and priorities considered. The family support program, first established in 1987-88, will be sustained for a second year. Efforts will continue with other justice, health, education, and social service agencies to promote effective family violence programming and child abuse protocols.

Mr. Nordling: On these lines, I am most interested in hearing what is new or different this year that we did not have last year that has increased the budget 19 percent, 11 percent and 12 percent, along with the explanation of what the program is about. Why is there an increase?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: The budget was increased by $124,000 due to a variety of factors, including cost of the new collective agreement, merit pay adjustments, Yukon bonus entitlements, resulting from changes in the family status of employees; as well as the full year funding for some positions that experienced vacancies during 1987-88 at $73,856; the expansion and planned group work for victims of family violence and child abuse, as well as related assessments and support services at $15,000; and completion of a second stage of a family violence program development project at $15,000; increased financial support for family counselling and effective parenting activities of the Yukon Family Services Association for Watson Lake at $24,000.

Mr. McLachlan: In the statistics provided on page 147 the Minister says the total number of children in care was 156, then a later statistic says the population of children in the care and custody of this department is three percent of the Yukon population in the age range 0 to 17. The numbers do not seem to add up. How can 156 be three percent unless I am fooled by the numbers that may be in custody?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: The statistics on page 147 are children who are in our care not children under the juvenile justice system, like foster parents and children in our group homes.

Mr. McLachlan: Three percent of the Yukon’s population in this age range is still a very high number.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: I am not exactly sure where the Member for Faro is getting the three percent.

Mr. McLachlan: I am asking for some justification for the statement that the children that this department has in care and custody are three percent of the population in that age range, and I am not hearing an answer.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: That includes not all the children who are in our care at present, but children who have been in and out of our care throughout the year.

Family and Children’s Services in the amount of $777,000 agreed to

On Placement and Support Services

Hon. Mrs. Joe: The budget has increased by 11 percent to $336,000. That was due to the cost of a new collective agreement together with merit pay and Yukon bonus as well as part-time day care assistant, which increases personal spending by $44,000. Additional other operating costs of $66,634, including $48,000 for the child care consultation process and the remainder for residential placement services for children in care for the new children’s treatment group home.

Placement and Support Services in the amount of $3,219,000 agreed to

On  Regional Services

Hon. Mrs. Joe: The increase of 12 percent was an increase of $307,000, including the implementation of the new collective agreement, merit pay increases and other benefits at a cost of $173,217; provision of $35,000 worth of evaluation of the Champagne Aishihik Child Welfare Pilot Project; an additional $26,650 in support for community-based child welfare and young offender placement activities; a projected increase in social assistance payments due to the introduction of a new rate structure for food, clothing, shelter and incidentals at $73,000.

Mr. McLachlan: The description of the social worker going to Carmacks is not the same as the individual in the department who travelled there on a regular basis to service that community. What is the department planning to do? Just provide a social worker four days a week? Half a year? What is the difference between the individual who served the community and the new one who is going to be there?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: It is the same position, but that social worker will be based in Carmacks; he will work out of Carmacks and have his offices there. He will probably live there.

Mr. McLachlan: Do the ads not say “term” or “full time”? How are you advertising that position?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: The individual who had the job will be keeping it and will be transferred to another section of our department. That position will be advertised as a term position, and then it will be a permanent position.

Mr. McLachlan: How long will it be term for?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: The answer is for as short a term as possible, until we can get a new person. When the person who is in that department is moved to another place, then that position will be vacant, and it will be a full-time position.

Regional Services in the amount of $2,793,000 agreed to

Community and Family Services in the amount of $6,935,000 agreed to

Mrs. Firth: Before we leave Community and Family Services, I would like the Minister to explain why the personnel under allotments has such a high increase of 14 percent.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: The $298,000 increase in the personnel allotment for 1988-89 is due to the cost of implementing a new collective agreement, the establishment of an auxiliary position for a day care assistant, and a part-time term native placement worker, together with increases in amounts for payment of Yukon bonus, resulting from a change in the family status of employees in the branch.

Mrs. Firth: The Minister has just given two more positions here we do not know about. It is very difficult to do this budget without a break-down of the person year complement, because we do not know what we are dealing with in person years in this department, other than 183 that have been the person years for the past three years, but we have all these terms, auxiliaries and casuals.

This whole department has had quite a marked increase in costs for personnel, compared to some other departments which, I am sure, have just as many personnel, if not more. For example, Community and Transportation Services’ overall increase was eight percent. In this budget, the overall increase is 17 percent for the whole department. It is very difficult for us to determine where all these people are and what all this money is going out to pay for when we cannot see where all these person years are.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: The auxiliary position is just that, and it is not a permanent person year that we have established under the $188,000. The part-time term native placement worker is a position that we have established in our department out of our complement of person years.

Mrs. Firth: Just to emphasize my point again, here is the Department of Education with 603 person years showing an overall increase of six percent for the personnel, and here is the Department of Health and Human Resources showing an overall increase of 17 percent for 183 person years. Here is the Department of Community and Transportation Services showing 332 person years with a total increase of nine percent. I would like to know why the Department of Health and Human Resources shows such a huge salary increase designated when the department has half of the staff of Education or Community and Transportation Services, and there is no increase in the person years indicated for the past three years. It stayed steady at 183.8. It does not make sense.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: I want it to be said that there were other increases besides spending for those two person years. The largest increase, as I mentioned, was due to the cost of the new collective agreement, and although I do not have a breakdown of each of those costs, that took up a large portion of that money:  $290,000 was used.

Mrs. Firth: Surely the Minister can understand the common sense here. If the Department of Community and Transportation Services has over 300 people, they all got increases in their wages also because of the agreement. Surely then they should show a huge increase compared with the small number of employees this department has in comparison.

The Minister has mentioned $300,000 in the total context of a $2,371,000 budget. I do not understand why the department cannot see what I am getting at. Are there that many casual, term or auxiliary employees that would have such an impact on this budget that we do not know about? Can the Minister tell us when we will have that information?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: The budget for Health and Human Resources of course takes in many of those individuals who do shift work, and I think that Health and Human Resources has more employees doing shift work than any other department. That has to be taken into consideration. There have been some positions at Macaulay Lodge, for $169,000. They do shift work and that costs a little bit more than somebody who works nine to five, or 8:30 a.m. to 4:30 p.m.

Mrs. Firth: You cannot compare a few shift workers to the budget for the Department of Education, which is over 600 person years. We are talking about 183 person years in this budget, compared to 600 in Education, and a tremendous difference in the increased percentage for personnel under Allotments. I do not buy the argument that shift workers are what is adding to the cost.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: If the Member so wishes, I could give her a complete break down of the cost for that section. I would have it ready for her tomorrow, if she wants it.

Mrs. Firth: Thank you. What I would like is to know how many people the Department of Health and Human Resources has working for it. This budget only tells us that they have 183.8 permanent person years. I want to know how many pay cheques are being given out in the Department of Health and Human Resources, including casuals, auxiliaries, and term positions. Then I think that we will have an accurate reflection of just how many people are working for this department.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: We have had to gather that kind of information very quickly for her during the break. We have it here in written form, and we would be prepared to give her that in typewritten form. This is our only copy right now and there is a little more information that has to be added to it.

Mr. McLachlan: The Minister in the Throne Speech announced that there could be revisions of the social assistance rates. When will that study be completed, and how much impact does the Minister project that will have on this program’s budget?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: We have shown a figure of $400,000. The new social assistance rates will be the basic income support components of the social assistance programs and will include: rates for food, clothing, shelter, including rent, fuel, and utilities, and incidentals, including personal and household care items. The rates have been developed on the basis of the following requirements: use of expenditure patterns for Yukoners for those goods and services as a basis for determining the average cost of living; recognition of price differences between Yukon communities; use of the nutritious food basket as a basis for analyzing food requirements and costs, availability of Yukon-specific costing data; ability to easily update rates in the future, and; administrative simplicity.

The new rate package, as I mentioned, is projected to cost $400,000, based on the case load and expenditure patterns experienced in 1987 and 1988. Those trends are expected to continue for this year.

The planned implementation for the new rates is July 1 of this year.

Mr. McLachlan: Some of the numbers of people on social assistance get fairly high. For example, 79 are unemployable according to statistics. Does that mean we continue to fund them on a monthly basis depending on their situation forever and ever? If someone is unemployable, how long can he/she continue to draw social assistance?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: We do have the Yukon Opportunities Program in social assistance, and that program is there to help find employment or training for those individuals who are on social assistance. The people on social assistance are required to try to find employment throughout the month. They have to come back with the report that says they tried. If they are unemployable, depending on the condition of their health, then they receive social assistance until they are able to go to work. You just cannot cut someone off if they cannot go out and work. We do require that they do try to find employment, and we do have a program that helps them find employment or training if necessary.

Mr. McLachlan: I realize we have the Yukon Opportunities Program in place, but I thought the figure of 79 had actually gone through that and had been found to be unemployable. Does the Minister have some idea of how many people  go through the program who get successful work and hold it? Is it very minimal, like one out of 20? Is he able to place more?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: I do not have those figures right now, but I do know we have had a good success rate. We have individuals who come in and are with us for a month or so. We do find employment for them. If he is looking for a figure, I do not have a specific figure with me.

Mr. McLachlan: The Minister could bring that figure back tomorrow. Thank you.

There were 112 social assistance people employed. Do we have situations where they are actually gainfully working throughout the year on a regular basis but still drawing social assistance?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: That would depend on the circumstances, because if you are working at a part time job, you are not making enough to get by so there is a subsidy that could be available. There could be a subsidy for some reason or other, but if he or she did have a steady, good-paying job, then they would no longer receive social assistance.

Mr. McLachlan: Also there is a third category of those who are employable but drawing social assistance that may mean they work two, three or four months. Can the Minister bring back more figures tomorrow showing something that tells us why 855 employable people are drawing social assistance? Did they go through the Yukon Opportunities Program and luck out, or does it mean they are only part time employable for a year and are forced to draw social assistance for the remaining two-thirds of the year? It seems that a high number can work. I realize there are cases when they cannot find work, but there seems to be a high number that we can employ, are able to work, but still end up drawing social assistance. Can the Minister provide some reasoning for that high number?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: I can do that, but what we are looking at right now is the year 1986-87, which is over a year ago. That is where those statistics are coming from. I am not sure whether or not we could bring back an up-to-date number for this year. I cannot say right now whether that number has increased or decreased, but I could bring that information back for the Member.

Mr. McLachlan: I realize we have just completed 1988, and it may be hard for the Minister to get all the figures. It would be helpful so we could compare the case load ending March 31, 1987 to the case load ending March 31, 1988 to see if it is getting any better.

Chairman: Is there any further general debate?

On Program Management

Program Management in the amount of $108,000 agreed to

On Alcohol and Drug Services

Mr. McLachlan: Does the department keep figures on the individuals who go through the detoxification centre who are repeat offenders, that is, people who we put through, they dry out, and are back again in two or three weeks?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: We do have figures. They are provided to us by the Crossroads organization and by Detox. We do have those statistics.

Mr. Lang: I find it rather confusing. We have never had a situation, such as we are facing in the Yukon today with the finances being made available to the Government of Yukon, mines and various other things in the economy. At the same time, we see our social assistance recipients up in numbers. I would have thought the exact converse would be the case where, with our economy the way it is, we would have more people working and fewer people on social assistance than in the hard times, such as 1981 to 1984. It seems we are either encouraging people to move in, or encouraging people to get on social assistance, because maybe it is an easy way out.

When you take a look at the numbers, it does not seem to bear any logic with respect to our overall economy.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: I do not have an explanation for that. There could be many reasons why they have gone up. We number in total all those individuals who are on social assistance, and they may be with us for a month or so and, then, get employment. I also know we have an increase in the population, as in other places, and the department’s statistics have gone up in regard to that as well. I do not know what the explanation is for that.

Mrs. Firth: With respect to the Minister’s statistics, I always get distressed, and I raise this every year when I read the statistics. It makes it sound like every household in the Yukon has a social problem of some kind. If someone comes and applies for social assistance, they get accepted and are on social assistance for a month, they get marked down as a statistic. Three or four months later, they come and apply again and get social assistance. Does the Minister count that as two separate applications in her statistics, or is the same person just counted as one person who may have applied three or four times?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: If that has occurred, the file on that person is opened again and they are counted as one person.

Mrs. Firth: So the statistics are even more alarming than we may think because that means there are even more people applying for social assistance. This government’s objective is for total employment, the goal of the fewest unemployed people in the world, 100 percent employment in the Yukon, the highest growth rate and the best economy in North America, and so on. Why would our social assistance numbers be increasing? For them to be increasing to what the government is predicting for our small population is really quite remarkable. I believe the Minister said today that they were identifying a considerable amount of money for additional costs and they are going to increase the benefits through regulations. Perhaps the Minister could give us some explanation of this staggering event.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: The statistics go back to 1985-86 where we had 2369 people on social assistance. That was when the economy was really bad. The next year it went down a bit to 2230, and in 1987-88 it has gone down to 2076, and we are estimating about 100 more for next year. There has not been a drastic increase.

Mr. Lang: Could the Minister explain what 1156/2126 actually means. Does that mean 1156 applications were successful out of 2126 who applied?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: The 1156 is the number of households. The number after it is the individuals who are part of those households, the total number of people involved.

Mr. Lang: Then it follows that we have more households now on social assistance than ever before. The only difference is that we may be dealing with families of three or four rather than six.

Does this take into account people who are eligible for social assistance vis a vis Indian Affairs? If one is getting social assistance through Indian Affairs can they get assistance here, or are those over and above that?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: No, they do not get double assistance. Status Indians would get their social assistance from Indian Affairs.

Mr. Lang: I want to follow this through, then. Does Health and Human Resources have the statistics of how many households are receiving social assistance through Indian Affairs?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: No, we do not.

Mr. Lang: I just want to echo the Member for Riverdale South’s comments. These are very scary statistics. We could conceivably have 10 percent of our population on social assistance, in one manner or another.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: I cannot control the number of people who come in requesting social assistance. There was a drastic drop when the economy was on the rise. Numbers right now indicate that the numbers have gone down. There were more households involved, but there were fewer people involved. We are looking, in 1988-89, at a increase of 20 or 30 households, but that may not happen. It is something that we should become concerned about, but those numbers may go down. This is just an estimate.

Mr. McLachlan: I am beginning to see now some of the reasons why the poor, hard working, over-worked Minister responsible for the Yukon Housing Corporation is having such a difficult time. I am going to bat for him now. Does it follow that some of the people who are receiving social assistance to buy groceries are also getting assistance, through the Yukon Housing Corporation, for their rent, and, if that is true, do we have comparative statistics of how many of the 1156 households, for example, would also be in our housing units.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: There could be a number of sources of accommodation they could be receiving assistance with, because it is very difficult to get something to rent within the amount that we pay. I do not have a breakdown of who receives public housing, and I do not have a breakdown of who receives public housing.

Mr. McLachlan: When an individual comes in to apply for social assistance, do we not ask where and what their accommodation situation is, and therefore track it through that mechanism — if they are also getting rent-free accommodation, for example? Do we not?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: I believe that the rent that we do pay depends upon what that cost is. If anybody is living in social housing and comes to us for social assistance, then of course they are getting a subsidy for that. If it is other housing — for instance if a family of five is paying for an apartment for $600 — we would pay the additional amount for that.

Mrs. Firth: Could the Minister tell us what the 15 percent increase is for?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: I was just going to do that. The increase amounts to $177,000. That is due to $146,000 in personnel expenditures, due to the implementation of the new collective agreement, auxiliary on-call staff at the Detox Centre, and full year budgets for positions vacant for part of the 1987-88 fiscal year; and $31,000 in operating funds for the new public awareness strategy and the Ministerial Advisory Committee on Substance Abuse.

Mrs. Firth: What is the public awareness strategy?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: It is a new communications strategy to make people aware of the dangers of alcohol and drugs. Some of it has already started — ads in the paper — and there will be commercials on the radio and stuff like that.

Mrs. Firth: Is this a new program, or is it one that was started last year?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: It is one that has just started. It has taken over from an older program. We are doing it in a different way with a different theme. It is an ongoing thing, like Participaction.

Mrs. Firth: Is the Minister saying that this program that has already started got started before we even approved the $31,000 in the Operation and Maintenance Budget? That is what I understand her to be saying.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: It was started in the last fiscal year and is being carried over.

Alcohol and Drug Services in the amount of $1,335,000 agreed to

On Social Assistance Services

Mr. McLachlan: Because we are only now going to be changing the regulations that will provide another $400,000 in social assistance, were the regulations changed recently to make it easier to get social assistance? Would that indicate a higher number?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: The regulations have not been changed yet. They are being drafted, but they have not been changed yet.

Mr. McLachlan: The Minister is referring to regulations being changed to provide for more money. I am asking if the regulations were changed because we did not have more money to give them to make it easier to get social assistance, thus indicating the higher number on the program.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: No it has not. Nothing has changed. What has happened in some cases that I know of is that when they are turned down for social assistance they go to the Social Assistance Appeal Committee. From there they can go to the Social Assistance Appeal Board and every once in awhile that decision is reversed by either the committee or the board. I know it has happened occasionally, but do not know how often.

Social Assistance Services in the amount of $2,778,000 agreed to

On Seniors Services

Hon. Mrs. Joe: There is an increase here of 32 percent. The increase is actually $328,000 and is due to the following factors: $42,813 to cover the cost of the new collective agreement together with full funding for  positions vacant during part of 1987-88; $169,000 in additional funding for the Home Care Program to enable it to support an estimated 50 additional recipients of home nursing or homemaking services; $48,800 for additional Pioneer Utility Grants; $54,972 for additional seniors income supplement grants; and small increases in funding for the Yukon Council on Aging, the Handibus service and seniors information publications.

Seniors Services in the amount of $1,339,000 agreed to

On Vocational Rehabilitation

Mrs. Firth: I do not have any questions about that, but I do have a question under allotments and the 38 percent increase. Perhaps the Minister could tell us what that is for?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: If I could just clarify — is the Member talking about the increases in personnel, other and transfer payments?

Just the other?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: The increase of $427,000 in the transfer payment allotment for 1988-89 is due to the cost of the new social assistance rates, to be introduced during the year, as well as the Pioneer Utility Grant, and the Seniors Income Supplement.

Vocational Rehabilitation in the amount of $1,266,000 agreed to

Social Services Program in the amount of $6,826,000 agreed to

Chairman: Committee of the Whole will now recess for 15 minutes.


Chairman: Committee will come to order. We will continue with general debate.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: The highlights for the Health Services program are the support for hospital and medical care required by Yukoners, involving an additional $1,901,400. Health transfer planning will continue with the negotiation of a hospital transfer as a priority, together with the construction of a new regional hospital facility. Whitehorse additional resources will support expanded audiology services, provided through the Communications Disorders Clinic. An additional term position has been established to support family life and health promotion services and there is provision of additional nursing care services for residents of Macaulay Lodge, at a cost of $179,000 for term positions.

On Program Management

Hon. Mrs. Joe: The budget has decreased by 14 percent and that is due to $21,000 for the reduction in consulting service contracts for health transfer planning.

Mr. McLachlan: The Minister said a reduction in health services, yet a new program has just been announced to study the health services in Faro, Watson Lake, Dawson City and Mayo. How much is that survey costing?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: The study that the Member is talking about is money from the Capital Budget.

Program Management in the amount of $131,000 agreed to

On Health Insurance

Hon. Mrs. Joe: An increase of nine percent, which represents a total of $1,676,000 over a projected year end of 1987-88, is due to the following: the increase of in-hospital insurance service provided in the territory accounts for $1,268,000 of the additional planned spending in that area, and the balance is for physicians services.

Mr. McLachlan: The statistics show a one-third increase in the number of physician claims in the territory and almost three times as many physician claims out of the territory, an increase from 8,000 to 24,000. Why are those numbers increasing so much?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: That indicates that we are sending more people outside for services, and could possibly be because of our increase in population.

Mr. McLachlan: Can the Minister, tomorrow, bring back the destinations of the 75 charter medivacs in the territory?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: I can bring that information back. I am not sure whether or not we can get it for tomorrow, but we will try.

Health Insurance in the amount of $20,422,000 agreed to

On Community Health

Community Health in the amount of $2,601,000 agreed to

On Extended Health

Hon. Mrs. Joe: The increase in the budget was due to the implementation of the new collective agreement, associated benefits and merit pay, as well as funding of the auxiliary on-call nursing, cleaning and kitchen staff, provision of $179,000 for additional staffing, approximately a $12,000 increase in the food and beverage budget due to high occupancy levels and special diet needs.

Extended Health in the amount of $1,661,000 agreed to

On Vital Statistics

Vital Statistics in the amount of $47,000 agreed to

Mrs. Firth: I just want to indicate again before we move along, there is a 19 percent increase here in personnel and no increase in person years, but the Minister has told us that there was $179,000 spent on additional staffing. Maybe when we get the person year complement, we will find out what that is all about, otherwise none of us know.

Health Services in the amount of $24,862,000 agreed to

On Juvenile Justice Program

Hon. Mrs. Joe: The program highlights for juvenile justice are: contracting for placements in Whitehorse wilderness camp programs for young offenders as effective alternatives to custody; planned construction of a secure custody facility in Whitehorse; major emphasis on public education and promoting diversion measures; establishment of day programming for young offenders and youths in conflict with the law, including life skills, education, work experience, activities.

On Program Management

Program Management in the amount of $128,000 agreed to

On Community and Court Services

Community and Court Services in the amount of $618,000 agreed to

On Residential Rehabilitation

Hon. Mrs. Joe: The increase in the budget of 32 percent is due to the estimated $282,000 increase in personnel costs resulting from the new collective agreement, associated benefits, merit pay and Yukon bonus adjustments; as well, provision for additional on-call staffing combined with full position funding for positions vacant during 1987-88. Of the remaining, $75,000 is for staff training, facility base programming and some operating costs associated with the new secure facility.

Mrs. Firth: What operating costs for the new secure facility? We do not even have one.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: We expect we will have one this fiscal year, and we will need to bring people in for that.

Mrs. Firth: How much money are we talking about? The Minister previously said in this budget debate that we were not going to be hiring any new people on. Could she tell us what she is talking about?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: There will be training necessary for some of those individuals who will be working in that facility. The $75,000 is for staff training, facility base programming and some operating costs associated with the new secure custody facility, so the staff we will be using will require certain things. They will be trained prior to taking over the positions in the new facility when it is built.

Mrs. Firth: The $75,000 does not include any of the physical operating costs of the facility? Is it just for staff training?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: Included in that is the cost of staples for the facility. That is part of it.

Mr. Nordling: The Minister talked about vacant positions accounting for some of the increase. When I look at 1986-87, there was $1.489 million, 38 person years. In 1987-988 there was $1.44 million, 38 person years. Now we have $1.897 million, and still 38 person years. I would like to know what positions were vacant, and for long?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: We do not have an up to date list of all of the positions that were vacant over the years. I do not know if the Member would like us to bring back that information.

Mr. Nordling: I would appreciate that information because the Minister said that part of this $500,000 increase was due to filling vacant positions, and now she is saying that she does not know what positions were vacant, or for how long. We would like to know.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: That information we do not have here in our books, and if the Member would like to have it, we could bring it back to the House.

Mrs. Firth: Perhaps the Minister could explain the 31 percent increase in personnel under Allotments?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: The increase of $428,000 in the Personnel Allotments for 1988-89 is due primarily to the new collective agreement, as well as full year costs of several positions that were vacant during 1987-88, as well as provision for additional on-call staff.

Residential Rehabilitation in the amount of $1,897,000 agreed to

Juvenile Justice System in the amount of $2,643 agreed to

On Grants, Contributions And Other Transfer Payments

Mr. McLachlan: The Handibus is $86,000. Is that the operating cost that we pay for that little bus that runs around picking up disabled people? We could buy two of them every year for that price, could we not?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: We have been giving them an amount in that area for a number of years and the amount has just been increased. That is what it costs. I think that it received an increase of $4,000 this year.

Mr. McLachlan: Does the increase of almost $500,000 under the social assistance transfer payments include the $400,000 that the Minister referred to as a projected increase when the regulations are changed, or will that be over and above the $2.5 million we see?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: It is included in those changes, as I have already indicated.

Mr. Nordling: Could the Minister tell us what this new Career Promotion Scholarships line is under grants for $5,000 that we did not have in 1987-88?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: The $5,000 will support the establishment of a scholarship fund for youth and adults pursuing advancement of formal training in health and social services.

The intent is to allocate a minimum of $5,000 per annum for this purpose. Several options are being considered, including grants to the Council for Yukon Indians for their scholarship fund, an arrangement with the Yukon Medical Association for cosponsorship, a grant to another community organization such as the Yukon Foundation, or a suitable non-profit society or arrangements with Yukon College. This grant is administered by the Policy and Administration Branch.

Mrs. Firth: Before we clear this budget, I want to express that I am not clearing it cooperatively because I have not had any information about the person year complement in this department. I do not think it is right for the government to ask this side of the House to clear $42 million when we have not even been provided with an adequate description of the person years.

Before we have the government pass this portion of their budget I would like to ask the Minister a policy matter in her department regarding AIDS. I would like to know if it is the policy in the department to classify this as a disability rather than a disease.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: As the Member knows, it is listed under the Chronic Disease Program. There are 47 diseases added and I believe it is listed as a disease.

Mrs. Firth: Is the Minister saying that, in her department right now, it is the policy of this government that AIDS be listed as a disease, or is it classed as a disability?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: It is listed as a disease under the Chronic Disease Program.

Mrs. Firth: What is the policy? Is she saying that, categorically, it is listed as a disease; therefore, it is not considered a disability? That is the policy of her department?

Hon. Mrs. Joe: As the Member knows, AIDS is a disease. Later on, a person with AIDS could become disabled because of the disease. I am not exactly sure the kind of information she is wanting from me, like whether it is a disease or a disability. I would say it was both.

Mrs. Firth: That tells us that this government is going to class AIDS as both a disease and a disability. If that is the policy of her department, then that is the policy the public is looking for.

On Department of Justice

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: Before I start, there are two typographical errors, not on the financial numbers, but on the statistics. Firstly, on page 180, there is a number for Certificates of Charge and a number for Certificates of Search. Those two numbers ought to be reversed. The 1987 actual for Certificates of Search is $3,985,000 and for Certificates of Charge is $842,000. Also, on page 198, under the 1987-88 forecast, there are 36 admissions. That number is not correct. It ought to be 50. That was the forecast for last year.

There are relatively few changes this year over last year. First of all, on the person year establishment, there is no change in permanent person years.

As is indicated on page 171, there is a change of one for a term position. This position is solicitor working for a term on the devolution of federal programs. That person will also work on the land claims issues for Justice.

The budget is almost the same as the budget resulting from the Supplementaries, which we identified about two weeks ago. The major changes are: there is an additional $50,000 under the court worker program that is for the prison liaison and cultural programing in the Correctional Centre. There is additional money for the tribal justice projects for Teslin and Old Crow. Those are the major initiatives. The rest is essentially the same.

There are some significant percentage changes under court services, which are largely reallocations within the lines, which I will explain when we get to them.

Mr. Phillips: Other than the tribal justice project,s are there any there any other new programs this year, and if so, what are those programs?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: No, there are no new programs.

Mr. Phillips: What is the status of the tribal justice project right now? Is it ongoing, or how much work has been done in that area?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: It is ongoing. There is one person employed under the day-to-day supervision of the chief and council. The crime prevention coordinator is evaluating that program. The evaluation is constant, but it will be primarily in the fall, in the month of September, I believe. The program in Old Crow is starting. That is, the contract with the band is being negotiated late this week.

Mr. Phillips: Why would you establish a trial tribal justice program in Teslin, for instance, and, before the program is barely off the ground, or before you have had any results whatsoever as to its possible success, you initiate another one in Old Crow? It does not seem to make sense. I would think that you would go out and try it first, and see how it works. If it is successful then you may move forward in other areas then.

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: The Teslin proposal and the Old Crow proposal are different. The Teslin person is called a crime prevention officer, and the officer is working primarily with young people in coordination with the Department of Education in the schools, and is working with the elders, the clan chiefs, on the practical development of a tribal justice system. The person in Old Crow will be working primarily on what would be called a wilderness camp experience, run by the band, primarily dealing with alcohol and drug abuse.

The reason why the two initiatives are different are that the government has supported the initiatives that are identified by the bands, and they are significantly different, so that it is useful to do and to evaluate both of them at the same time.

Mr. Phillips: That clarifies it a little bit, but I understood that the tribal justice system was a program that was going to be initiated that would be universal: tribal justice in Teslin would be the same as tribal justice in Old Crow. Yet now we find out that there will be, not two systems of justice, but maybe five or six or seven systems of justice — or maybe 13 with every band in the territory — plus the system of justice that we all have to face now. There could be 14 or 15 systems of justice in the territory, depending upon how many bands there are. Is that not true?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: During the motion debate about tribal policing I tried to explain this. We are not talking about a system of justice to replace the present system. We are talking about something that is complementary to the present system. It is probably accurate to say that the tribal justice structures will be different in the different cultural groups. The people of Teslin have a significantly different cultural heritage that the people of Old Crow, and the particular cultural links will be different.

Mr. Phillips: What happens in the case of a native person from Carmacks who commits a crime in Teslin? Will he go in front of the Teslin tribal justice council, the Carmacks tribal justice council or in front of a regular judge?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: He would go in front of a regular judge just the same as a person from Teslin would if there was a Criminal Code charge.

Mr. Phillips: I am a little confused. The Minister is saying everyone would go in front of a regular judge if he is charged with a criminal offence, is that correct?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: Yes.

Mr. Phillips: When will the tribal justice council come into play? What problems do they handle? Do they not handle any of the sentencing?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: If it comes into play in a formal sense it will be undoubtedly as a result of a land claims agreement. Presently, in the practically foreseeable future, they are doing work, but it is akin to diversion  work. If there is a charge under the Criminal Code or the related statutes the regular courts will be the process to deal with that matter.

Mr. Phillips: Will they be replacing the JPs in any of the communities?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: It is too early to say. I cannot say either yes or no. It is my prediction, which is in the nature of a speculation, that the tribal courts and the JP courts will be amalgamated or be doing work side by side in some communities. I would emphasize that I am only speculating and I strongly expect that the entire issue will be canvassed at the land claims table. It was in 1984 and will be again, I am sure.

Mr. Phillips: So what the Minister is saying is that we have embarked upon a tribal justice system in Teslin and do not know where it is leading. Has it been tried before in other areas? Does it have a record of working? How much does it cost?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: The specific cost is $17,000. The concept of tribal courts in not new. They have been tried in many places in differing kinds of experiments.

I think it is fair to say that the Teslin Band is embarking on a tribal justice initiative. The territorial government is supporting the investigatory stages of that initiative, along with its general crime prevention initiatives. If there is a tribal justice court, that will be far bigger than what is occurring today in Teslin.

Mr. Phillips: We will be following this experiment with some interest. If there are no other Members who have questions on that, I would like to move on to another area.

Mr. McLachlan: Is there a native special constable in the two locations where they are trying the tribal justice system?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: I do not specifically remember. I believe there is in Old Crow, but not in Teslin. I will get back to the Member about that.

Mr. McLachlan: Will it be the policy of the government in any future situations where we try the tribal justice system to have a native special constable on the force in those locations?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: No, the two programs are independent, in that the placement of native special constables is done by the RCMP. There are positions available in both Teslin and Old Crow, and there have been special constables in both those communities. The practical consideration is there are not the people to fill all the positions. Where the RCMP place the specials in a particular year is not something the government has traditionally interfered with.

Mr. McLachlan: Regarding the numbers and the placement of the special constables, I want to ask the Minister if he can bring back one figure for tomorrow’s debate, and that is: can we see the number of policemen under the agreement with the RCMP working outside of Whitehorse? Can the Minister bring back the break down of the total for Whitehorse and the rural communities, of all detachments and divisions.

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: Yes. I thought that it was in the book but it is certainly available. Page 197 has statistics and that information is available. If the Member has any other particular question I will answer it.

Mr. McLachlan: I see the totals. I am asking for the rural as opposed to Whitehorse, out of that total.

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: Yes, I will get them.

Mr. Phillips: There is a decrease in the budget of the native constable program this year. Is that an indication from the Minister that he eventually plans to phase out that program, and that he intends to replace it with some other program?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: That would not be an accurate statement, stated in its general sense, no. The situation is a very difficult one. The Council for Yukon Indians has withdrawn support for the special constable program. The special constable program is for the benefit of native people. It is my position that we are in a period of transition here, and ultimately the land claims process will probably be the process where it is all decided. It is the present policy of the government to treat the programs on a community by community basis. That is, where a particular community has an initiative that they would support to a greater degree than the special constable concept, then the government will follow the position of the particular community.

Mr. Phillips: I understand that but, again, I am talking about the program itself. Every other jurisdiction across Canada is clamoring to expand the native constable program. We are the only jurisdiction that is decreasing our budget. I have talked to several of the special constables and, although there are some problems with the program, the norm is that most of them go on to be regular RCMP constables. They think it is an excellent kind of training program for that kind of career. I would encourage the government not to phase out the program in Yukon and to continue the program wherever possible.

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: It was $254,000 last year. Our budget has actually increased. The position I have taken has changed over time. In fact, I very strenuously requested the RCMP here to increase the number of specials and decrease the number of regular members. They were not cooperative with that strenuous request I made of them, and I am hoping that they will be in the future.

Mr. Phillips: The Minister said it was a $254,000 increase this year? I see in 1987-88 it was $304,000 and, this year in 1988-89, it is $275,000. That is a decrease. As a matter of fact, in the book it says it is a 10 percent decrease.

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: In the Main Estimates, 1987-88, it was $254,000 and was increased by a Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Nordling: Does the Minister already expect this to be increased by a Supplementary Estimate for 1988-89? Have we missed already?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: No, I do not.

I move you report progress on Bill No. 50.

Chairman: It has been moved by the Minister of Justice that the Chairman report progress on Bill No. 50.

Motion agreed to

Hon. Mr. McDonald: I move that the Speaker do now resume the Chair.

Chairman: It has been move by the Minister of Community and Transportation Services that the Speaker do now resume the Chair.

Motion agreed to

Speaker resumes the Chair

Speaker: I will now call the House to order. May the House have the report from the Chairman of Committee of the Whole?

Mr. Webster: Committee of the Whole has considered Bill No. 50, entitled Second Appropriation Act, 1988-89, and directed me to report progress on same.

Speaker: You have heard the report from the Chairman of Committee of the Whole. Are you agreed?

Some Hon. Members: Agreed.

Speaker: I declare the report carried. May I have your further pleasure?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: I move the House do now adjourn.

Speaker: It has been moved by the Minister of Justice that the House do now adjourn.

Motion agreed to

Speaker: This House now stands adjourned until 1:30 p.m. tomorrow.

The House adjourned at 9:29 p.m.

The following Legislative Returns were tabled May 9, 1988:


O&M Estimates - Executive Council Office: Policy and Intergovernmental Relations (Federal Relations contract work) (Penikett)

Oral, Hansard, p. 178


Supplementary Estimates - Executive Council Office Land Claims Secretariat, contract payments to Mr. Koepke (Penikett)

Oral, Hansard, p. 276


O&M Estimates - Executive Council Office, salary range for Deputy Minister (Penikett)

Oral, Hansard, p. 166


Yukon Energy Alternatives Program - List of users to March 31, 1988 (Penikett)

Oral, Hansard, p. 311


Loan Assistance Program costs (Penikett)

Oral, Hansard, pp. 312-313


O&M Estimates - Prospectors Assistance Program - project cost (Penikett)

Oral, Hansard, p. 311


Special ARDA contributions re unfair competition (Penikett)

Oral, Hansard, p. 312


Ewan Cotterill retained by Department of Economic Development (Penikett)

Oral, Hansard, pp. 34 and 51


Business Loan Assistance Program (Penikett)

Oral, Hansard, p. 311


Operation of Hyland Forest Products mill re recent fire (Penikett)

Oral, Hansard, p. 257


O&M Main Estimates - Workers’ Compensation Board, amounts voted (Penikett)

Oral, Hansard, p. 448


Green Paper on Child Care - cost of production (M. Joe)

Oral, Hansard, p. 351


Staff residence for nurses in Faro, cost (M. Joe)

Oral, Hansard, p. 353

The following Sessional Paper was tabled May 9, 1988:


Letter dated May 6, 1988, to Ronald Ryant re electrical power service to Henderson’s corner, response to Petitions No. 1 and 2 (Penikett)

The following Document was tabled May 9, 1988:


Yukon Housing Corporation Capital Project Management Manual (McDonald)


(1) 1987-88 Capital Maintenance on Public Buildings;

(2) 1987-88 Pre-engineering Capital Program (Kimmerly)