Whitehorse, Yukon
Tuesday, May 10, 1994 - 1:30 p.m.
Page Number 2495
Speaker:
I will now call the House to order.
We will proceed at this time with silent Prayers.
Prayers
DAILY ROUTINE
Speaker:
We will proceed at this time with the Order Paper.
Introduction of Visitors.
Tabling of Returns or Documents.
TABLING RETURNS AND DOCUMENTS
Hon. Mr. Brewster:
I have a legislative return.
Speaker:
Are there any further Returns or Documents for tabling?
Are there any Reports of Committees?
Are there any Petitions?
Are there any Bills to be introduced?
INTRODUCTION OF BILLS
Bill No. 60: Introduction and First Reading
Hon. Mr. Phelps:
I move that Bill No. 60, entitled Miscellaneous Statute Law Amendment Act, 1994, be now introduced and read a first time.
Speaker:
It has been moved by the Minister of Justice that Bill No. 60, entitled Miscellaneous Statute Law Amendment Act, 1994, be now introduced and read a first time.
Motion for introduction and first reading of Bill No. 60 agreed to
Bill No. 75: Introduction and First Reading
Hon. Mr. Phelps:
I move that Bill No. 75, entitled An Act to Amend the Coroners Act, be now introduced and read a first time.
Speaker:
It has been moved by the Minister of Justice that Bill No. 75, entitled An Act to Amend the Coroners Act, be now introduced and read a first time.
Motion for introduction and first reading of bill No. 75 agreed to
Bill No. 80: Introduction and First Reading
Hon. Mr. Phelps:
I move that Bill No. 80, entitled An Act to Amend the Pharmacists Act, be now introduced and read a first time.
Speaker:
It has been moved by the Minister of Justice that Bill No. 80, entitled An Act to Amend the Pharmacists Act, be now introduced and read a first time.
Motion for introduction and first reading of Bill No. 80 agreed to
Speaker:
Are there any Notices of Motion for the Production of Papers?
Are there any Notices of Motion?
Are there any Statements by Ministers?
This then brings us to the Question Period.
QUESTION PERIOD
Question re: Teacher contract negotiations
Ms. Moorcroft:
My question is for the Minister responsible for the Public Service Commission. Talks between the Yukon Teachers Association and the government have broken down. I would like to ask the Minister what mandate were government negotiators given with respect to the wage rollback?
Hon. Mr. Nordling:
I think the mandate has been made clear. It was to achieve a level of savings that was equal to a two-percent rollback and a freeze on wage increments, but the mandate was also given to negotiate that level of savings in any way possible. It did not have to be that level of rollback or necessarily having wage increments frozen; it was to achieve a level of payroll savings.
Ms. Moorcroft:
We have heard both the Minister of Education and the Minister responsible for the Public Service Commission expressing some sympathy for the position that young teachers will be placed in with the freeze of the increments.
What mandate were the negotiators given with respect to experience increments?
Hon. Mr. Nordling:
The negotiators were given the mandate to allow the increments for younger teachers to be in place if we could achieve the level of savings we wanted in other ways.
Ms. Moorcroft:
So it sounds like there may have been some room for experience increments to occur if there were larger wage rollbacks.
Could the Minister confirm that one of the government demands was that teachers be responsible for paying for their own professional development?
Hon. Mr. Nordling:
No, I cannot confirm that.
Question re: Teacher contract negotiations
Ms. Moorcroft:
My questions are for the same Minister. Were the government negotiators in any position to show flexibility about the threat of legislation if no agreement could be reached before May 20, 1994?
Hon. Mr. Nordling:
No, that was not part of their mandate.
Ms. Moorcroft:
The Minister does not seem to understand that negotiating usually implies two sides trying to find some common ground. Is the Minister willing to send the negotiators back to the bargaining table with a clear mandate to negotiate in good faith?
Hon. Mr. Nordling:
It was my understanding that the two sides were trying to find common ground. Unfortunately, they were not able to do that. Yes, we are willing to send our negotiators back to the table, but the mandate that the Yukon Teachers Association received from its membership on the weekend, I think, would have to change somewhat.
Ms. Moorcroft:
I do not see how the Minister can say that there was some attempt to find common ground when the government was holding the threat of legislation over the talks.
If the talks do not resume, is the Minister willing to extend the May 20, 1994 deadline until the conciliation process is complete?
Hon. Mr. Nordling:
I do not know that a conciliation process has been asked for. Is the Member telling me that that is the route that the teachers plan to take in this negotiation?
Question re: Teacher contract negotiations
Mr. Cable:
I have questions for the same Minister about the same subject matter. I would like to follow up on the last question. The deadline that was set by the Minister in his letter of April 14 to the Yukon Teachers Association was May 20, 1994. It is not clear, but I gather from debates that have taken place in this House that the deadline was set with the view that legislation would be brought in if there was not an agreement reached by that time. Is that date still the government's deadline for bringing in legislation?
Hon. Mr. Nordling:
Yes, it is.
Mr. Cable:
I have been told that the projected savings over the three-year period - this is payroll costs - is of the order of $3.6 million, of which $650,000 relates to the present fiscal year.
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Are these numbers on payroll cost savings correct, and if not, what are the numbers?
Hon. Mr. Nordling:
I would have to look at the numbers that the Member has given me and check them; they do not sound familiar to me.
Mr. Cable:
Let me ask this question: when the Opposition was briefed on the budget, the total estimated payroll savings for both YEU and the Yukon Teachers Association was something in the order of $3 million. In view of the fact that the anticipated savings would be less than one percent of the total budget, why are we rushing into this? What is the rush? What is it that the government is anticipating has to happen by May 20? Is there some financial crisis that is arising?
Hon. Mr. Ostashek:
As Minister of Finance, I may be better able to answer that question for the Member opposite.
There appears to be a misunderstanding. There is a little over $3 million in payroll cost savings in the budget that is before this House now. The total savings over the three-year period is, I believe, estimated to be $13 million or $17 million or so.
Question re: Teacher contract negotiations
Ms. Moorcroft:
My question is for the Minister responsible for the Public Service Commission.
We have tried repeatedly to ask the Minister about a letter sent to Yukon teachers on April 19. Last week, the Minister said he was the author of that letter. A few moments later, when the Leader of the Official Opposition asked who was responsible for several factual errors in this letter, the Minister of Education replied, "I think that it is the Public Service Commission, and I will follow that up." Can the Minister tell us which statement is accurate?
Hon. Mr. Nordling:
I do not know what the Member is talking about. The Leader of the Official Opposition asked me questions about the letter. I told him what I was referring to. When he asked about the bitter confrontation, I do not think he mentioned factual errors, other than the fact that there were some. He then sat down.
Ms. Moorcroft:
Perhaps the Minister should try listening to the question that is being asked.
The Minister of Education, when asked about the letter, said that he thought it was the Public Service Commission that had written it. Can the Minister tell us who wrote the letter and who is responsible for it?
Hon. Mr. Nordling:
Yes, I wrote the letter, not the Public Service Commission. I am responsible for it.
Ms. Moorcroft:
Did the Minister receive any advice from his Cabinet colleagues, his departmental officials or from independent legal counsel about the implications of sending such a letter while collective bargaining was underway?
Hon. Mr. Nordling:
No.
Question re: Land claims, approval of Parliament
Ms. Commodore:
As the Government Leader knows, Yukon Indian land claims and self-government legislation will be tabled in the federal House some time this week. The Reform Party has already announced that it will stall the passage of this legislation, so it already appears, as far as the extreme right is concerned, it will be given a rough ride.
Can the Government Leader tell us what he and his Cabinet colleagues will be doing to assist this important piece of legislation passing through the House of Commons, and then the Senate?
Hon. Mr. Ostashek:
I have already written letters to all parties in Ottawa. I believe we included a copy of the motion that was passed in this Legislature. I urged all of them to support passage of the legislation.
Ms. Commodore:
Would the Government Leader be prepared to offer to the federal government the assistance of all parties in this House to help with the passing of this historic and important legislation? There could possibly be something this group could do, as a whole.
Hon. Mr. Ostashek:
By forwarding the motion that was debated and passed by unanimous consent in this House, I believe that should send a clear message to Ottawa and to the people who have to deal with the legislation that this Legislature is fully in support of this legislation.
Ms. Commodore:
I will have a further question in regard to the Government Leader's answer.
I understand that the Government Leader is considering attending an Aboriginal Affairs Conference soon. Should the Government Leader decide to attend the conference, would he be prepared to propose a resolution calling for the unanimous support of the land claims settlement legislation?
Hon. Mr. Ostashek:
If I were going to be attending the conference, I would certainly give it consideration, but I have decided not to attend the conference because I have to go to the Western Premiers Conference next week. I am sending an official to the Aboriginal Affairs Conference in my stead.
Question re: Land claims, approval of Parliament
Mr. Penikett:
One of the outstanding issues that had to be resolved before the legislation to implement the Yukon land claim could be presented to Parliament was the dispute about the use of one word in the umbrella final agreement, namely the word "not," with respect to whether the self-governments negotiated in Yukon were treaties under the terms of section 35, and CYI had petitioned the federal government to take the word "not" out. The federal government declined. Could I ask, for the record, what was the position of the Yukon government in this dispute between the Council for Yukon Indians and the federal government?
Hon. Mr. Ostashek:
I would have to check with the negotiators on that. I do not remember being approached on that particular issue. I know that several technical amendments were made to the agreements, to which all parties agreed, and my understanding was that that part of it was all finalized. The only thing that was yet outstanding was the surface rights legislation, which is supposed to go hand in hand with the land claims and the self-government legislation through the House of Commons.
Mr. Penikett:
I must say the Government Leader's answer surprised me, because this is a question of fundamental importance to First Nations people here and to people who are interested in this question everywhere in the country. The federal government must have consulted the territorial government in the drafting of the final legislation to go before Parliament. The Council for Yukon Indians was looking to have the word "not" removed from the umbrella final agreement in the section that said that this was not a self-government agreement for the purposes of section 31 but, since the federal government had changed its position from that of the previous government on this question and, according to the words of the Minister, were prepared to accept the self-government agreement as a section 35 agreement, it is very important for us to know, for the record, what the position of the territorial government was in this dispute.
Hon. Mr. Ostashek:
As I said, some of these negotiations took place in Vancouver, I believe. All three parties were down there negotiating, and this is an issue that must have been resolved at the table. It was not something that was bumped up to me, requiring my decision or a Cabinet decision.
I will get a briefing on it, and I will let the Member know what position we took on it at the table.
Mr. Penikett:
I am sorry to press this point. It is not a minor technical point; it is an important point of policy and, indeed,
Page Number 2497
principle. The questions resolve down to this - and I want to ask the government this: is it the position of the current territorial government that the self-government agreement in the Yukon constitutes a new third order of government? The reason why I press this question is because the Reform Party and other extremely conservative elements in the current Parliament are mounting an attack on these kinds of provisions, especially as they are contained in the self-government agreements in the Yukon. We, in this House and, indeed, the public of the Yukon, need to be absolutely clear about where our government stands as this debate goes forward in Parliament.
Hon. Mr. Ostashek:
This party has always taken the position that once the agreements were negotiated, they should have the protection of the Constitution. I said that when the constitutional hearings were held here, even prior to taking this office.
Question re: Teacher contract negotiations
Ms. Moorcroft:
Last year, the negotiations with the public service went into a phase of conciliation. We are certainly concerned about the impact on the education system of the present breakdown in talks with the teachers. I would like to ask the new Minister responsible for the Public Service Commission if he is prepared to consider conciliation.
Hon. Mr. Nordling:
No, that is not our intention.
Ms. Moorcroft:
Does the Minister have any suggestions at all about how he might break this impasse?
Hon. Mr. Nordling:
I hope that the teachers will reconsider their mandate, will look at the flexibility that the government has exhibited so far and will be prepared to discuss further with us reaching a new collective agreement without the necessity of legislation.
Ms. Moorcroft:
We have not seen any evidence of any flexibility at all from this government. Their only understanding of the process is "take it or leave it, like it or lump it." Those are the two sides that they see. Can the Minister tell me why they are not prepared to consider conciliation as an option? I think that Minister should be prepared to accept responsibility for his role in yesterday's breakdown in negotiations. Why are they not prepared to consider conciliation as an option?
Hon. Mr. Nordling:
I do not think it was a case of "take it or leave it, like it or lump it" at all.
Some Hon. Member:
(Inaudible)
Hon. Mr. Nordling:
The Member says "our way or the highway". No, it was not that either. My impression was that the teachers were even less flexible, according to their mandate, than we were, which is unfortunate.
Question re: Whitehorse General Hospital, board appointments
Mrs. Firth:
I have a question for the Minister responsible for Health and Social Services. Some of the hospital board appointments have expired; particularly, the term of the chair of the hospital board has expired. That individual has subsequently resigned from the board, although she had further time to serve. I understand that there are also two other vacancies: one for CYI and another vacancy. Can the Minister tell us when he is going to be filling these positions and when he going to be making an announcement?
Hon. Mr. Phelps:
We intend to make an announcement shortly. I can advise the Member opposite that we have filled two positions and will be going forward with the naming of the new chair, but that has to go to Cabinet this week. We had to consult first with the Council for Yukon Indians, and they have agreed to our suggestion. We will be in a position to make that announcement Thursday.
Mrs. Firth:
I guess the Minister will not be asking for any input from the Members opposite with respect to suggested names for the board, so I will have to wait for his announcement. I would like to ask the Minister a related question.
The Legislature is now entering its fourth week, and we have not had any information come forward with respect to the progress of the hospital reconstruction. I would like to ask the Minister specifically about the temporary measures that are costing over half of a million dollars. I gather that there is a fair amount of progress going on. Could the Minister tell us if they are on time, on budget, and have there been any additional costs for the temporary measures?
Hon. Mr. Phelps:
We are on time and on budget. With regard to the last part of the question, I would have to check and get back next week. I am not aware of any changes, but I will have to bring that information forward.
With respect to the issue of consultation and membership of the board, I am sure the Member is aware that appointments to the board are drawn from recommendations by various groups, such as the City of Whitehorse, Association of Yukon Communities, and the Council for Yukon Indians. That is where we get the names from whom we have appointed. With regard to the chair, it is important that we consult with CYI, and we have done that. We are running late and hope to have everything in place by Thursday.
Mrs. Firth:
The Minister could still consult, if the government's intention of involving Members of the Opposition on the appointments of boards was sincere.
My final supplementary is in regard to consultations and communications. I understand that there are some groups that work at the hospital and have withdrawn from the consultative process, because they do not feel that they are being consulted. In fact, they feel that things are progressing without their input. When the Minister provides the details that he is going to be bringing back to the House, could he also provide us with some information with respect to how the consultative process is working, and tell us if all groups are still participating in that consultative process?
Hon. Mr. Phelps:
Certainly.
Question re: Kopper King Trailer Court, eviction notices
Mr. McDonald:
The families living in the mobile homes in the Kopper King Trailer Court, who are soon to be evicted, went before the Whitehorse City Council last evening to seek possible solutions to the predicament that has been forced upon them.
While city council gave them a sympathetic ear and pledged some support, it was obvious that the short-term and long-term solutions cannot come from them alone.
To address the financing requirement for a move and the upgrade of the units, the Yukon Housing Corporation board was to be asked to provide special loan funding to help out.
Can the Minister responsible for the Yukon Housing Corporation tell us when the board will meet?
Hon. Mr. Fisher:
As Members are aware, the board of directors of the Yukon Housing Corporation are from communities all over the Yukon. It is intended that they will be meeting through teleconference. That meeting should take place within a week.
Mr. McDonald:
Telephones are good and telephones are immediate. I hope that we can expect a decision from them shortly.
There are only three weeks left for the residents to go through the paperwork, contract with the mover, find a new site and then move. I ask the Minister, in an attempt to buy some more time, would the Minister personally intercede with the developer of the project that is to be placed where the trailers now sit to try to convince the developer to provide more time before the eviction
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takes place?
Hon. Mr. Fisher:
I very recently spoke to the owner of the trailer park. One of the trailers has until July 15, 1994, before it has to be moved. Another trailer has the option to move to the Arkell subdivision in the Logan area, and the third trailer has been offered lot 19 in the existing Kopper King Trailer Court.
It was my first impression, because of City of Whitehorse restrictions, this lot would not allow a trailer being placed upon the ground. However, my understanding from speaking with the owner of the trailer park is that that is not necessarily true and that one trailer can go on to the lot in the trailer park.
Mr. McDonald:
I would hope the Minister would take the word of the fire marshall in his own department as to whether or not a trailer that is almost a double-wide can fit on a 30-foot wide lot in the Kopper King Trailer Court. Last night, the officials at the city council seemed to think that was not possible. If the developer of the trailer court is the final arbiter of this question, perhaps we should all be asking him whether or not the solutions have all been found.
Clearly, the availability of land is the most difficult element facing the evicted families. Can the Minister tell us whether or not he has satisfied himself, either through the Yukon Housing Corporation or the lands branch, whether or not there is land available inside the city to accommodate the remaining trailers?
Hon. Mr. Fisher:
It appears to me that there is one trailer that could be moved within the trailer park and, other than into another trailer park, it is unlikely there would be a place to which that trailer could move. As I said before, one has until July 15. The person who owns that one actually owns, or has interest in, land outside the city limits that could accommodate that particular trailer. The other one can be moved to the Arkell trailer subdivision, so we are essentially left with one trailer that would have to move to a pad in another trailer court.
I am not exactly sure, but I did go by one of the other trailer parks in town last night, and I noticed an empty stall. Whether it is available for rent or not, I have not been able to find out this morning.
There is one other thing the Member opposite did bring out, and that is that there is a short-term and a long-term problem here. I think we can deal with the short-term one in the next few days, but the long-term one is what to do about the 900-odd trailers in the Whitehorse area that could be subject to the same situation at some point in the future.
Speaker:
Would the Member please conclude his answer.
Hon. Mr. Fisher:
I was just getting warmed up. The Minister of Justice and I want to look at the Landlord and Tenant Act with a view to amending it.
Question re: Yukon Energy Corporation, consultant
Mrs. Firth:
I have a question for the Government Leader. It is with respect to the consultant that he has examining the options for ownership in the restructuring of the Yukon Energy Corporation. I am referring to Mr. Terry Boylan. I would like to ask the Government Leader if this individual is still on contract to this government?
Hon. Mr. Ostashek:
I am not exactly sure. I do not know what date his contract expired. I will check on that for the Member.
Mrs. Firth:
It was May 6.
Is the individual still working for the government? Is he still doing work for the Minister's department?
Hon. Mr. Phelps:
The individual has, as I understand it, submitted his report. It will go to Cabinet. His contract is at an end, I understand.
Mrs. Firth:
The written report was to be presented for review by Cabinet no later than May 6. Can the Government Leader tell us whether or not Cabinet has reviewed this report?
Hon. Mr. Phelps:
The report has been received by ECO, as I understand it. It will be going to Cabinet for review by the Cabinet.
Question re: Heritage buildings
Mr. McDonald:
It was reported today that the City of Whitehorse is waiting for the Yukon government to take action to protect historic buildings before they develop similar regulations, to ensure that the city can do its part to help out. Clearly, no government feels yet that it has a role to play until the Minister legislates. This leaves old buildings that are still standing in Whitehorse quite vulnerable.
Can the Minister of Tourism tell us what action the government will take right now to ensure that more historic buildings are not demolished prior to the government passing laws that discourage this kind of activity?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I thank the Member for the question. As it even sits right now, the City of Whitehorse does have the ability to make its own heritage bylaws. It has chosen not to do that at this present time.
Having said that, my understanding is that there is an agreement in place with the City of Whitehorse and there have been about 25 or so buildings identified in four categories in the city. There is a process in place whereby when the city gets a demolition permit, it will notify the Yukon Historical and Museum Association that a permit has been asked for. There will be time given to respond. In this case, it is my understanding that that association was not notified by the city that the permit had been applied for and granted.
Mr. McDonald:
That obviously bespeaks a failure in the existing process and clearly, given that the Minister is aware now that the City of Whitehorse intends to do very little until the government legislates, does the government have a plan of action in place? Do they have a strategy to protect older buildings in Whitehorse from demolition between now and the time the legislation is developed and passed in the House?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
That was the strategy. There is a process in place whereby they notify people; the buildings are identified and, if someone wants to demolish one of the buildings, someone is supposed to be notified. The city, in this particular case, did not notify YHMA about it. We will raise that point with them. I must tell the Member that we have provided all kinds of information to the City of Whitehorse so that, if they wished to draft heritage bylaws, they could do so; but up until now, they have not drafted their own bylaws for the protection of heritage buildings. They can do that within their mandate now; they do not have to wait for us.
Mr. McDonald:
Presumably, the City of Whitehorse is waiting to see what the amendments are that the Minister is proposing. He said in June and December of 1993 and now in May of 1994 that the amendments to the Historic Resources Act were minor and required some consultation with the stakeholders before the legislation could be resubmitted to the Legislature. Can the Minister tell us with whom he has consulted and whether or not he has agreement with interest groups about the proposed changes?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
In the last session, I mentioned that one of the concerns we had with the Historic Resources Act was the legal requirements we would be under once that act became law, even without providing all the staff people that the act requires. I had the department check that to find out what the overall costs would be of putting that act in place, and that process is going on. The plan was that, once the Department of Justice and the heritage branch drafted the new changes, the amendments to the act, then we would go to the Yukon Historical and Museum Association
Page Number 2499
and others and have a brief consultation period, then bring the act into the House.
Our concern was the cost implication of the act. That has been checked out now and I feel more comfortable with the act as it is, so we are proceeding with the drafting. I am not sure what stage it is at.
Question re: Historic Resources Act, consultation
Mr. McDonald:
On the same subject, the Minister did say in June of last year that there were some minor amendments. I looked it up in Hansard, and he detailed the concerns, in particular with respect to legal requirements and cost implications. Last summer, he said he thought these were minor, and he was going to go into consultation with various interests in the territory, and he hoped to bring something back in the fall - last fall.
During December's debate, he indicated that deadline had slipped, and he was intending to bring something back in the spring - this spring. Can the Minister tell us - because he has indicated he has gone out for two rounds of consultation now, one last summer and one this spring - with whom has he consulted on the proposed changes, which he has characterized as minor amendments, and whether or not those groups feel they have been consulted thoroughly enough, and whether or not they are in agreement with the suggested changes the Minister is going to be proposing?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I think I just said that we are going to do the consultation when we have the amendments. There is no point in going out and not being able to show them what the changes might be. What we will do is draft the minor amendments, and then go out to the various groups to show them what the amendments are. If they accept those amendments the way they are, then we will come back into the House.
I would have liked to have done it sooner. I, too, am somewhat frustrated that it has taken this long to get to this stage. I have asked the department to put a much higher priority on it. I would like to see the act in the House. I was hoping to see it here some time this session but, if we do not see it this session, I am almost positive that, barring unforeseen circumstances, it will be in the fall session.
Mr. McDonald:
I think the problem is that the Minister and I are both feeling fairly severe frustration here, because the amendments were ostensibly minor and there were statements made, presumably because the Minister had taken advice from his department, that the various stakeholding groups would be involved in the discussions. It appears that no stakeholding groups have been involved in any discussions now for quite a period of time.
Can the Minister tell us with what specific stakeholding groups he is intending the department to consult with, and what specific time lines he is expecting they will be faced with, when it comes to providing recommendations on these amendments to the act?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I do not have a specific time line for the consultation, but we will certainly be consulting with the Council for Yukon Indians and the Yukon Historical and Museum Association and people who would be interested in specific changes relating to the Historic Resources Act.
Mr. McDonald:
Could the Minister provide such a time line? I think that the frustration is boiling over here a little bit. I would like to ask the Minister a related question specifically about the Whitehorse waterfront.
There are a few older buildings in the Whitehorse waterfront area, as detailed in this publication I know the Minister is aware of, Edge of the River, Heart of the City.
Given our debates in the Legislature last week, we all think we know who is planning the future of the waterfront. Could the Minister tell us what role the heritage community will be playing in waterfront planning, once that process gets underway?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I hope that the heritage community will play a significant role in the planning of waterfront. In fact, when the previous government, in conjunction with the City of Whitehorse, introduced the initial waterfront plans, I and many people in the heritage community were quite upset by the fact that there was not a strong heritage component attached to that act. The then government had one statue of Robert Service they were going to put in a circular-type public viewing area. Other than that, there was going to be a lot of office space and a promenade along the waterfront. I know that many people in the heritage community were quite upset with those plans.
I would hope that the heritage community has a very strong involvement in the waterfront. They have documented a lot of history of the waterfront and I would hope that they would be strongly involved in the planning.
Speaker:
The time for Question Period has now elapsed.
Notice of Government Private Members' Business
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
Pursuant to Standing Order 14.2(7), I would like to inform the House that the Government Private Members do not wish to identify any items to be called on Wednesday, May 11, 1994, under the heading Government Private Members' Business.
Point of Order
Speaker:
Leader of the Official Opposition on a point of order.
Mr. Penikett:
Did I hear the Government House Leader correctly? Does that mean that the Minister does not intend to call the motion in the name of Mr. Millar concerning the Workers' Compensation Board?
Speaker:
Hon. Government House Leader on a point of order.
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I guess my microphone was not working. I said, "Pursuant to Standing Order 14.2(7), I would like to inform the House that the Government Private Members do not wish to identify any items to be called on Wednesday, May 11, 1994, under the heading Government Private Members' Business."
Speaker:
I do not believe there was any point of order.
Mr. Penikett:
I concede. It was an entirely spurious point of order and I apologize to the Member, and express our deep regret on this side of the House that we will not be debating that motion.
Speaker:
We will now proceed with Orders of the Day.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I move that the Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve into Committee of the Whole.
Speaker:
It has been moved by the Government House Leader that the Speaker do now leave the Chair and that the House resolve into Committee of the Whole.
Motion agreed to
Speaker leaves the Chair
COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE
Chair:
I will now call Committee of the Whole to order. Is it the wish of the Members to take a brief recess at this time?
Some Hon. Members:
Agreed.
Recess
Page Number 2500
Chair:
I will now call Committee of the Whole to order. We are dealing with Bill No. 15, entitled Second Appropriation Act, 1994-95.
Bill No. 15 - Second Appropriation Act, 1994-95 - continued
Department of Education - continued
Mr. Harding:
I have a lot more questions to ask in general debate, but I think that the Minister has filibustered and stonewalled enough, so I am prepared to move into it line by line.
On Finance and Administration
On Activities
On Administration
Mr. Harding:
Could I have the breakdown on that, please?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
The administration line item of $390,000 consists of the deputy minister's office, the assistant deputy minister, finance, management and information services. The major reason for the change is the transfer of the departmental receptionist position from this line item to the finance and personnel line. The other factor affecting this budget is the estimated impact of wage restraint.
Ms. Moorcroft:
Does this also cover the ADM of public schools?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I can check on that. I believe the ADM of public schools would be covered under the public schools budget.
Administration in the amount of $390,000 agreed to
On Finance and Personnel
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
The finance and personnel line item contains the departmental accounting and human resource staff, and a management information system. There is $838,885, or 91 percent of the budget, for wages and benefits. The major reasons for the increase is the transfer of the receptionist position to this unit for $43,000, and the transfer of a records clerk from Government Services for $47,800.
Finance and Personnel in the amount of $922,000 agreed to
Finance and Administration in the amount of $1,312,000 agreed to.
On Public Schools
Ms. Moorcroft:
I have some follow-up questions regarding the position of the assistant deputy minister. The Minister was indicating yesterday that they wanted a manager and decided to post it that way. The Minister said he agreed with that. The Minister obviously approved the job ad. However, what would happen if he did not? Is he saying that it is the deputy's call?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
No, the deputy is paid to manage his department. When this position came open with the reorganization, the deputy came to me and said that this was the type of individual he would like for the position. He convinced me that there were enough people within the Department of Education with a background in education. He needed a position as is described in the ad. I have every confidence in the deputy. That is why I supported it then, and I still support it.
Ms. Moorcroft:
I think this is a serious issue. There is a lot of concern about it in the educational community.
I obtained a copy of the statement of qualifications. I do not believe that the Minister tabled one, but that did not stop me from going and getting one. I have further questions. The essential qualifications are a university degree or degrees, including an indication of how this academic preparation will be used in the performance of the duties of this position. The knowledge of public schools operations is rated as a qualification, but not in the essential qualifications section; it is only in the further qualifications area. Can the Minister explain why he agrees that there is no requirement for senior level personnel - in this case, an Assistant Deputy Minister of Public Schools - having some relevant university education in the field?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
We have dozens of senior managers, including superintendents, who have all kinds of experience in the field of education. It might surprise the Member to know that in some of the provinces in Canada, in some cases, there are principals of schools who are simply administrators. They have no educational background and they just administer. It is the teaching staff at the school who have the educational background and experience.
What we are looking for in this particular case is a good administrator, and I am sure that whoever is hired will not be without any educational background whatsoever. Just the job description alone determines that the person would have gone to university, will have been involved in education for a great number of years and will be a fairly highly qualified individual.
Ms. Moorcroft:
If that is the Minister's position, I do not understand why he accepted the job description and qualifications for the ad that is now appearing in the newspapers. There is no essential qualification for a background of a master's degree in education, for instance, or other relevant educational qualification. That is a very serious concern for us. What they have listed as essential qualifications are management skills, program management, experience in management positions - they are looking for a manager; they are not looking for an educator.
Mr. Harding:
I have a couple of questions for the Minister. I would like the Minister to provide me - I know he will not have it at his fingertips - a month-by-month breakdown for the Department of Education for the last fiscal year. The reason I am asking this is because we did not deal with the supplementaries before we got into the 1994-95 budget. I would like a month-by-month breakdown of office supplies, furniture and administrative computing equipment purchased by the department in the last fiscal year.
Can he provide that for me?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
Maybe I will ask the Member what usefulness that information would have. I want to make the Member aware that it will probably take weeks of work for a couple of people in the department to put together that kind of information. They would have to stop their other jobs to pull together that information. The budget is similar to other years. There is no big difference from other years. In the interest of efficiency, does the Member have something specifically that he is after - did we spend more than last year, did we buy more at the end of the year or something? To do a month-by-month breakdown is an outrageous request. It will require an awful lot of work by the department.
Hon. Mr. Nordling:
Perhaps I can help out a bit. The Member for Faro may want something more specific.
Right now, my Department of Government Services is trying to pull together that sort of thing from all departments, in answer to Written Question No. 48. That was a breakdown of contract purchases by quarter. I think the idea was to look at the purchases in the fourth quarter of the year.
We have asked the Department of Education for its purchases over the last three years, and I expect it will be done within the next week or 10 days. That may give the Member some of the information he wants. I can tell him it is quite a bit of work to gather it. The way it is in the system, it is not easy to pull that information out.
Mr. Harding:
I thank the Minister responsible for the Public Service Commission for that. For the Minister's knowledge, we have had a number of complaints that there has been a year-end spending spree in Education on equipment such as I have identified. We are checking it out on behalf of the people who have
Page Number 2501
raised the matter with us.
Would it be difficult to come up with this information? I know the Minister, when he was in Opposition, would never have accepted the reason for not giving the information he just gave. Nonetheless, I will be gracious and accept that there may be some work required.
As a way of offering a compromise to avoid unnecessary work, I do not mean equipment purchased for school use. I am talking about the administration side of the department, in the area of furniture, office equipment and office supplies.
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I will try to get some of the information the Member requires. The Member should know that this is the first year in the last three years that, for the last month of the year, the Department of Education school budgets were not frozen. In previous years, the Department of Education was so much over budget they had to freeze the school-based budgets. The schools are quite happy that, for the first time, they are allowed to actually spend the budget allocation they get for the year. Even after spending that, however, we still spent less than the year previous, and we are going to come in on target with last year's budget.
Mr. Harding:
It is no secret that the Education budgets have been shrinking. I do not know what the Minister is talking about when he says that the schools are so thrilled. I have not talked to one educator in the territory who is thrilled with anything the government is doing in education.
I thank the Minister for providing that information. I guess the numbers will tell the story, if they are accurate and provided in a reliable fashion. We will then make a determination, based on the numbers.
I will take that commitment from the Minister, but I also wanted to ask him a question on another issue regarding public schools - a constituency matter. The issue of staffing for Del Van Gorder, given that the major industry in the community is closed, has been the subject of much debate in this Legislature between the Minister and me last year. As well, in the last legislative sitting, I asked the Minister a number of questions about staffing. The Minister communicated very quickly to me, through written correspondence, how he intends to staff Del Van Gorder. My understanding is that a survey has been done in the community, indicating the number of people who expect to have their children in the school next year and that the government will staff accordingly. We really do not want to get into the situation where we did last year, where court action was having to be taken against the government for commitments not honoured on things like moving expenses. I just ask the Minister: is that commitment in place? What is the status of that process at this point?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I would have thought the Member for Faro would have been in communication with the school council. I would have thought the Member for Faro might have attended the public meeting with the Government Leader, because I believe at that meeting, as well as through letters I passed on to the school council, we indicated that, yes, we are staffing to the formula as laid out by the people of Faro, and the school council certainly knows that. I am surprised the Member for Faro does not know that. It surprises me he does not have those figures or does not know what is going on there. I have given that commitment; I have stated it a couple of times publicly.
I would like to add, as well, that the Member for Faro raised a concern about morale in the Department of Education. He says that things are really bad in the Department of Education, but I would like to remind the Members that a couple of things have been said recently that are contrary to that. One is a statement by Mr. Allan Bacon, who is the president of the Canadian Teachers Federation. In his reading of the Yukon situation, he suggests that morale is still good here, despite problems between the government and the educators. Now, this is an independent person who has a chance to speak to some of the teachers and go around and talk to them. His assessment is that morale is just fine and he is prepared to make that statement in the newspaper.
The other concern that I think the Member for Mount Lorne raised is that all these teachers are going to be leaving the territory and it is a terrible thing that we are not going to have any teachers. For September 1994, we have 419 full-time equivalent teachers. At the present time, we have resignations from 13. That is three percent. That is not a mass exodus of teachers because they are unhappy with their jobs. I think the other thing that is important to note is that not only are there only 13 leaving, but there are 1,500 other teachers from all across the country who are trying to get jobs in the Yukon, so, this cannot be a terrible place to work.
Yesterday, the Member for Mount Lorne, as she went through the study done by the masters program, talked about how the teachers were unhappy. She mentioned the small margin of teachers who were unhappy, but if she had turned the page over and read one more page, it said, "Overwhelmingly, employees stated that they liked their jobs. The highest positive responses were provided by the MG01 to 05 classification, grouping at 94.9". Interestingly enough, it says the Yukon Teachers Association members/respondents had a 94.5 positive response rate. That is pretty high. It is not perfect - 100 percent would be perfect, but 94.5 is a pretty high percentage of people who are pleased with their jobs. But, I think that, even since that report came out and the government has given its intent to table legislation, only 13 teachers have submitted their resignations. In fact, that is fairly low compared to some other years. We usually have a lot bigger turnover than that and this is significantly lower than many other years.
I would just like to put that on the record; there are some teachers out there who are happy in their jobs. They do like working in the Yukon and they do like working in the best conditions in the country, with the highest pay in the country. I know the Member for Faro likes to rise and paint this bleak picture that it is a terrible place to work, and I know he has this negative disease that he cannot get out of his mind, but unfortunately the facts are to the contrary. Teachers are relatively happy in their jobs. I believe they are relatively happy in their jobs.
Mr. Harding:
If one were to conclude from the Minister's comments that the statements he just made are indeed true and indicative of the feeling in the education community right now, one would probably say that a person asking questions on issues such as morale should not ask further questions. I do not think that is the case.
If the Minister wants to continue to live on cloud nine in the Cabinet room, thumping all of the other Cabinet Ministers on the back, and thumping his chest about how they are doing such a great job, he can continue to do so. The Minister can continue to read into the record statistics about what he feels is the wonderful job that he is doing, but that is not going to stop me from asking questions in this Legislature when I know what the real story is.
I talk to people who know exactly what this Minister is doing to the education system. Every month the Minister gets up and does something new that does more to destroy the education system. He stands and gives speeches, but those are all the laurels of the previous Minister of Education; he has no laurels. The Minister has done nothing; he has not done a thing. He is the most unpopular Minister of Education, and he is going to be the most unpopular Minister of Education in the history of the Yukon. Period. Bar none. Without question. I could guarantee that the current Minister of Education will never get the accolades that other Ministers of that portfolio have received in this territory, because he is absolutely going the wrong way.
Page Number 2502
The Minister can read all of the statistics that he wants. He can tell me that morale is fine, but those comments do not wash with anybody, except for his own Cabinet colleagues. They can all thump their chests and their desks all that they want; they can thump anything they want.
The Minister gave me a snippy little answer about the school staffing, which is something I am used to getting from the Minister.
I was at the public meeting in Faro. As a matter of fact, I chaired the meeting with the Government Leader and the Minister was not there. The question came up about staffing levels and the Government Leader said that he would have to get back to my constituents; that is all that he said. He did not clear the record or say anything about it, because he was not sure. He did not know.
A few of my constituents have phoned me and asked when the government will act on their commitments to get back to them with the information. The government never did get back to any of the constituents who had questions, such as educational assistants.
Some Hon. Member:
(Inaudible)
Mr. Harding:
Good point. When I get up in budget debate I get a lecture from a Minister who was not even at the meeting. It is incredible. Is that the best the Minister has?
It is ridiculous.
I also got a letter from the Minister about staffing levels. I had a phone conversation with him, and he said he responded promptly. I simply asked the Minister if there has been any change. I do not know why he is being so defensive, other than the fact that he feels he has been unjustly treated by us over the last few days. He has had it pretty easy in Question Period. There are a lot of questions in Education that have to be asked regarding strand testing, how the capital budget is progressing this year, the education review and the list goes on and on and on. We are asking these questions, and sometimes we have to ask them many times before we get an answer. The Minister does not like answering questions. Eventually, although it is like pulling teeth, we do get responses. I feel good about that.
There is no need for the snippy type of answers he gave me about the school staffing in Faro. We had a lot of problems last year. He must be cognizant of that. In Question Period, I brought up the fact that four teachers had to take the department to court. Was the Minister not listening? He should know that there were problems.
I have no idea why he would respond in such a snippy fashion. I suppose perhaps we will have to go over some of these issues again and see if we cannot change his mind about them. If the Minister keeps this up, it might happen.
Some Hon. Member:
(Inaudible)
Mr. Harding:
I simply asked the Minister if there has been any change to what he said on the phone, what he said in his correspondence and what he said to the school council. I have talked to all of them, but I wonder if there has been any change to date?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
The Member mentioned thumping, and he knows he is the only thumper in this House.
The Member asked me if there has been any change. I think this Member is going to be getting a nickname. Maybe we will call him "Repeat," because he phoned me and asked what I was going to do and I told him that we were going to listen to what the people in Faro had to say. Then I wrote him a letter and told him the same thing. Then I wrote the school council a letter and told them the same thing. Then he stands up in the House and asks if I have changed my mind again. This is only for the 1994 year and I only told him that about three weeks ago.
The Member has a strange disease - he just likes to hear things over and over and over and over, continuously, until he drives everybody bananas. He asks the same questions and he gets the same answers. Then he criticizes somebody about morale, and then when he gets the facts, and he does not like the facts, he goes off onto one of his other tangents again. The next thing we will be hearing is that the government does not have a debt; that will somehow be tied into the facts. He will tie it into the facts, somehow, that the government does not really have a debt.
I do not think the Member and I will ever agree on what is going on in the Department of Education, but I can tell the Member that I attend a lot more briefing meetings than he ever does. Even the ones he is afforded, he cannot bother to attend. He also does not bother attending a lot of school council meetings or other meetings throughout the territory, such as I attend.
I do my job as the Minister of Education, meeting with various people. If the Member is going to stand up and make accusations, I would appreciate that he does his homework as the critic, because obviously he has not done his homework when he starts talking about issues such as morale. He fabricates things and then thinks if he can say it enough times - the repeat theory - maybe someone will believe him.
It is unfortunate that the Member chooses to do that, but that seems to be the approach of the Member for Faro. I know he thinks it is funny but he always gets that way when he knows he is being attacked and he has no defence.
Mr. Harding:
The laurels that Minister has to rest on are quite something. He actually goes to his briefing meetings with his officials. Amazing; what a Minister. Dynamite. What a dynamic Minister.
That Minister is going to get a nickname in this House, too. Not any nickname about "Repeat"; it is Adolph, because he thinks he can always tell us what we have to say.
Point of Order
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
Point of order, Mr. Chair.
I resent that kind of a comment from any Member in this House, and he had better withdraw it immediately.
Chair:
Order please.
Mr. Harding:
On the point of order, Mr. Chair. The Minister of Tourism and the Minister of Education has referred to me in this House before Trevor Winston Churchill Harding, and I am simply referring to him as another legendary character from the past, responding in kind.
Chair:
I would remind Members that it is unparliamentary to refer to somebody as Adolph Hitler, and I would ask Mr. Harding to withdraw his comment.
Mr. Harding:
I have been referred to in this House before by the Minister of Education as Trevor Winston Churchill Harding - he has named me. There are a lot of people who think that Winston Churchill was not a very great man. He sicked the government and the army on the miners. I just referred to the Minister in kind. He is acting like another legendary character from the past. Whatever connotation you have for him is up to the individual. I think the Minister is going to get a nickname, and that is Adolph.
Chair:
In my view, that is not the same thing.
Mr. Harding:
I do not want to put the Chair in a tight spot. Since he has asked me to withdraw the comment, I will withdraw it. The Minister has also had to withdraw things in the past. I would ask, in future debate, that he does not refer to me, with negative connotations, as legendary figures from the past. I would ask that he extend to me the same courtesy that he rises to demand of me in this House.
If he wants to talk about nicknames, he should be prepared for the nickname that he is getting from a lot of people on this side of
Page Number 2503
the House, and from people in his own department. He behaves in a very irresponsible and dictatorial fashion, and that is why he is given that name. They call him all kinds of things. I will withdraw the comment at the request of the Chair.
Chair:
Thank you, Mr. Harding.
I would ask Members on both sides of the House to refrain from name calling. It is not right to give each other names in this Legislature.
Bill No. 15 - Second Appropriation Act, 1994-95 -continued
Mr. Harding:
Has there been any change to the staffing formula in Faro?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
No.
Ms. Moorcroft:
The Member for Mayo-Tatchun always has lots of good advice for me, and one of the questions he suggested I should ask regarding the issue of the assistant deputy minister of public schools is the question that native language teachers require knowledge of native language. Why, therefore, would it be that an assistant deputy minister of public schools does not require a knowledge base of educational administration? The fact that subordinates will have a background in educational administration is simply not good enough. The Minister stated that people who are managers and have educational experience would be making those kinds of decisions. If you are going to hire someone as an assistant deputy minister, and then ask their subordinates, who have a background in educational administration, to make those kinds of decisions, that is an awful lot of money for a position for someone to be an assistant deputy minister but not have the qualifications.
The Minister has agreed that the type of person needed to run the department efficiently and effectively is a manager, and that is it. They do not need any background in educational administration.
Again, does the Minister have any kind of backup for that position? Why would he feel that it is good enough for subordinates to have a background in educational administration for this new assistant deputy minister, or is the Minister just going to hamstring them before they get started?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I gave the reason for that job description. I have no intention of changing the job description.
Ms. Moorcroft:
I would like to ask some questions relating to native teacher training. The Minister of Education ran into some trouble last year regarding the Yukon native teacher education program. Has there been any interference from the ministerial level with the management and administration of the program in the current year?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
No.
Ms. Moorcroft:
Is the Yukon government prepared to guarantee adequate funds for the continuation of the YNTEP program until the number of First Nations teachers is equivalent to the proportion of First Nations children in public schools?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
Yes, there is a continuation of $630,000 in this year's budget.
Ms. Moorcroft:
Does the Minister of Education have regular consultation with the First Nations Education Commission and CYI leadership on programs, personnel and funds relevant to First Nations education?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
Yes, I am supposed to be meeting with FNEC some time in June. I do not think there is a definite date set yet for it, but I will be meeting with them in their regular meeting in June.
A few weeks ago, I met with the executive director of FNEC, the vice-chair of the Council for Yukon Indians and several others regarding YNTEP.
Mr. Cable:
At the briefing that the Minister's assistant put on a couple of weeks ago, there was a document that was referred to as the revised staffing entitlement formula. I am trying to make my way through it. There was special reference to special education and educational assistants. Does the Minister have a copy of the document in front of him?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
Yes, I believe I do.
Mr. Cable:
Under the special education and gifted category, it states that the total number of special education teachers is determined by dividing the total projected public school population by 120 and rounding it to the nearest person year. It goes on to deal with the public schools branch special education policy as somehow being the determinant of that number. I do not have the policy in front of me, but where did the number of 120 come from? Is there a background paper that would permit a person to figure out what the rationale is for establishing that number?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
That was a policy that was passed by the previous government and approved by Management Board. I could probably get a copy of the existing policy and the reason for it and bring it back for the Member.
There has been no change since our government came into power.
Mr. Cable:
What led up to the policy and the establishment of that particular number, and the numbers generally?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
There was research conducted by the department, but you could probably ask the former Minister of Education, on the other side of the House, because I believe he was part and parcel of formulating that policy. I can gather the technical information about what led up to the policy and get back to the Member with it.
Mr. Cable:
That would be very helpful. I cannot ask the ex-Minister of Education any questions on the floor of this House.
Some Hon. Member:
(Inaudible)
Mr. Cable:
I would like to ask a question about the next category, which is educational assistants.
It says that a number of indeterminate positions for special educational assistants is determined by dividing the total projected public school population by 250 and rounding to the nearest half person-year.
How was that number arrived at? Did someone actually sit down and figure out where the 250 comes from?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I think the number was arrived at through research and finding out how the positions are established throughout the country, and then looking at a formula for the Yukon.
If the Member is having some difficulty with that number, because his questions are quite detailed and technical, perhaps I can arrange a briefing for the Member with the special education people on how they arrived at that number. That might be the simplest way to solve this problem.
Mr. Cable:
Yes, I think that would be helpful. If there are any background papers that I could read before the briefing, I would appreciate receiving them.
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I will make an effort to provide that information to the Member, if it is available.
Chair:
Is there any further debate on public schools?
On Activities
On Administration
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
The eight-percent decrease in the line results from a $120,000 savings in the personnel allotment and $187,000 in the Other allotment, coupled with an $88,000 increase in the transfer payment allotment. The net difference is $219,000 and can be accounted through such things as the impact of wage restraint, plus administrative staff realignments of $120,000, a reduction in anticipated recruitment costs in the amount of $70,000, and decreased outside travel of $27,000.
Mr. Harding:
What were the decreases in outside travel? What conferences were there requests to go to, or what conferences
Page Number 2504
had people from the department gone to in the past, but did not go to, to account for these savings?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
Some of the reduction is accounted for by the fact that there is a very low turnover in teachers, so there would not be as much travel associated with that.
Administration in the amount of $2,606,000 agreed to
On Program Delivery
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
This line item in the budget is the largest single component in the Department of Education budget of $41,201,000. An amount of $37,331,000 of the total budget, approximately 90 percent, is for wages and benefits; $521,000 is for superintendents' offices, including wages, benefits, support staff and travel; and $1,347,000 is allocated for salaries, plus benefits, for school secretaries. The budget for the following items are also included in this line item: program materials purchased by the schools, $576,000; utilities, $2,433,000; field trips, $80,000; and telephone, $145,000.
Program Delivery in the amount of $41,201,000 agreed to
On Program Support and Development
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
This budget is for $1,766,000. Out of this total, $937,000 is budgeted for salaries and benefits. The major reason for the increase on page 96 of the estimates statistics is the funding of the secondment position from the school system to work on math diagnostic assessment.
Mr. Harding:
The breakdown for this line shows what is supposed to be an increase but, on page 91, we see that we have a decrease of one percent. What does that reflect?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
That is a result of reductions in the seven separate activities that are under that line item.
Program Support and Development in the amount of $1,766,000 agreed to
On French Language Program
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
This includes funding for French programs administration, $224,000; the cost of French monitors in schools, $201,000; and French adult education, $98,000. The basic reason for the reduction is the onset of a cost charge-back for 1.5 administrative positions from the French programs to the Executive Council Office under the French language agreement with Canada. The value of this charge-back amounts to $90,000.
French Language Program in the amount of $594,000 agreed to
On Special Programs
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
The special programs line item of $1,304,000 consists of funding for such areas as school support and psychological services, speech language programs, occupational therapy and sensory impairments. The increase in funding over the previous year will be used toward enhanced professional development of special-needs staff, increased clinical psychologist support services, and the operation of territorial resource rooms.
Mr. Harding:
When the government took over in 1992-93, there were still five months left in the fiscal year. I believe there were two permanent psychologists filling what were considered to be two temporary positions. It is my understanding that those two temporary people were let go, and there was quite a void there. I see that this 1993-94 and 1994-95 budget is back in the vicinity of the 1992-93 budget. Was it felt that the assessment times were getting too lengthy and required more psychologists to be brought in? Is that what happened?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
No, I do not think that was the reason. I believe the main reason is that there are some severely troubled children and the psychologist is being brought in to deal with those children.
Mr. Harding:
So the assessment times were not lengthening at all with the reduction of two psychologists - is that what the Minister is saying?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I provided a briefing note in the sitting in January that pointed out that we spent the first couple of years of this program identifying children with special needs. Now we have reached the point where we have some 400 children identified, one way or another. Once we have them identified, there is no need to play catch-up. When we started the program a few years ago, there were many more to identify. I think that the assessment time - as I stated in the briefing note - varies depending on the problem. In my understanding, I do not think that there has been a large increase in the time it takes to do an assessment. I think that it depends entirely upon the needs and the problems of the child.
Mr. Harding:
The 1992-93 actual is $159,000. The 1993-94 forecast - we do not have a supplementary for Education - but the forecast is presented as $441,573. That is a major increase in psychological services. The 1994-95 estimate is $409,442. What is the reason for going from $159,000 to $441,000 and then to $409,000? What is being done now that was not being done in 1992-93?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I can bring a note back to the Member. I would have to go back and ask the department for the reason for the changes.
Mr. Harding:
I would like to remind the Minister that he is the one who continually stands up and tells us how fiscally responsible he is. I am quite shocked that he cannot tell us where an extra $300,000 of expenditures is coming from.
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
We are talking about a $72 million budget. There are lots of areas included in it.
If the Member wants, I can talk for awhile, go through all my briefing notes here, find that particular program and recite the reasons for the Member, or I can bring a briefing note, in order to expedite the time of the House - whatever the Member wants.
Mr. Penikett:
It would be faster just to table the briefing notes.
If I cannot provoke the Minister with that remark, I will ask a question.
One year ago, I asked the Minister about the extremely difficult class of students who, for one reason or another, are not able to fit into the conventional classroom seating. The Minister abused me a bit at the time for not being sensitive to the teachers who have to put up with very difficult, violent or acting-up children. I said that I understood that problem and was not unsympathetic to the teachers, but I was also quite mindful of the fact that the Education Act is quite clear about individualized education programs, and so on, and provides a guarantee that every child should receive an education. I do not intend to mention any names here, but I am sure that the Minister has had brought to his attention two or three cases that I can think of instantly.
At the time, I asked if the Minister could respond about what the policy or plan was in dealing with extraordinarily difficult cases, such as these kids, who just did not fit into the regular classroom, and what the department was doing to ensure that they were getting an education. Is the Minister going to be replying to my question with a legislative return shortly? Is there any more he can say now? I am quite happy to wait for the answer; I would just like to eventually have it.
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
At the time, the Member did mention some specific students to me, and we knew which students we were talking about. I am satisfied that the department made every effort it could to get those individuals into the education system. Things are working out much better for one of those individuals, and that individual is slowly being integrated back into the regular classroom.
As well, we have set up seven resource rooms, serving students
Page Number 2505
with a variety of problems. The latest one, as I mentioned the other day, was in Elijah Smith School. We are dealing with this on a student-by-student basis, when we run into this situation. I am convinced that the department is taking it very seriously and does everything it can to get the students back into the classroom. At the same time, it must keep in mind the safety and security of the other students and teacher in the classroom.
Mr. Penikett:
Let me be clear that I applaud the efforts of the department in doing that. Without identifying the individuals, I wonder if the Minister would undertake to come back to me and identify how many children there may be in the system right now who cannot be accommodated for various reasons in the conventional classroom and for whom alternative arrangements have been made - just as a way of accounting to the House for what the department is doing for these extremely difficult cases.
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I can undertake to ask the department to do that.
Special Programs in the amount of $1,304,000 agreed to
On Facilities and Transportation
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
The facilities and transportation line item of $6,219,000 consists of two major expenditure components: transportation services, in particular student busing, estimated at $2,861,000, and the costs associated with custodial personnel in the schools at $2,938,000. The remaining funds are for supplies, security contracts and administrative staffing.
Ms. Moorcroft:
I know the Minister is aware that, in March, I contacted him about the fact that elementary school students from Marsh Lake were arriving in Whitehorse late for classes. A meeting was held out at Marsh Lake's Lakeview Marina where Department of Education and Diversified Transportation officials listened to the complaints and the suggestions. On an interim basis, the bus scheduling has been altered to provide for a morning transfer at the Carcross Cutoff; one bus goes to Whitehorse Elementary and other downtown schools, and another bus delivers students to the Riverdale schools.
One of the main concerns a lot of parents brought forward at that meeting was the fact that their elementary school children were on the buses for a long period of time. One parent said his child would not drink his milk in the morning because he did not think he could make it to school without having to go to the bathroom. Being on the bus for a long time is a problem.
Will the Minister of Education commit to providing a bus service so that we do not run into these same kinds of problems next year - one that will ensure that the students will arrive at the school before two hours have elapsed from the time they leave Marsh Lake until the time they get to school?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
The Member can understand that rural busing sometimes can be quite a complicated matter, especially when a small number of individuals are being picked up from great distances. We try to work out the schedules as best we can to get the kids to the schools as quickly as we can and in the best manner.
I will take the Member's representations and pass them on to the department. I am not sure what arrangements have been made for next year to solve some of the problems the Member mentions, but I will raise it with the department.
Ms. Moorcroft:
I note that there was a small decrease in the line item for facilities and transportation. I would like to ask whether that decrease is in the amount allocated for student busing or whether it is in the amount allocated for custodial personnel in the schools.
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
Most of that is the two-percent wage reduction. I believe the Destruction Bay bus will not be running next year.
Ms. Moorcroft:
Do they plan to close the school in Destruction Bay next year, or is it just that they are eliminating the bus service?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I met with the people of Destruction Bay and they wanted to keep the school open. One of things they talked about was the deletion of the bus. They discovered it was costing $64,000 annually to transport four to five students to school, and that that was a pretty expensive way to get those kids to school.
Ms. Moorcroft:
The other major expenditure in this line of the budget is the custodial personnel in the schools, for almost $3 million. I know that the government is trying to get wage rollbacks and talking about legislating cutbacks for the teachers. Can the Minister tell me if there are any plans to eliminate the custodial personnel in the schools, or if they are simply planning on making a wage rollback.
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
There are no plans of eliminating the custodial staff in the schools.
Facilities and Transportation in the amount of $6,219,000 agreed to
On Policy and Planning
Policy and Planning in the amount of nil agreed to
Mrs. Firth:
I wanted to ask the Minister a question that I had given some notice of during my response to the budget. My question has to do with one of the statistical pages, page 96, listing the dollar amounts for special programs, teachers, and so on.
Could the Minister tell us what the rationale was for the inclusion of this page and the statistical information?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
Is this back on public schools?
Chair:
Yes, it is.
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I have no problem responding.
This information was explained at the technical briefing, and we also provided some additional information at that time. This is the first time that these statistics have been included, and the reason for including the statistics was to round out the entire picture of wages and benefits and the costs that the schools would have to add.
For instance, the assistant deputy minister and support staff is $266,000; Gadzoosdaa Residence staff is $524,000; superintendents and staff, $421,000; clerical staff, $1,347,000; and the custodial staff is $2,938,000.
We also pay $74,000 toward the salary of the president of the Yukon Teachers Association.
This information was provided to give a clear picture of what all of our salary costs are in the Department of Education, and no other reason than that.
Mrs. Firth:
I could read the information and I was at the briefing, but I wanted to know what the rationale was behind the information. The Minister is saying that these figures were provided for information.
Perhaps I will bring to the Minister's attention that some people may perceive this to be put in here for some purpose other than giving information. I am trying to give the Minister some information about concerns that have been brought to my attention.
Because of the confrontation with the YTA right now, and the inclusion of this statistical information, which very clearly lays out exactly how much it costs for us to pay the salaries of teachers and all of the other particular areas within this department, some people may interpret the inclusion of this kind of information, at this time, not to be in their best interests. I am bringing this to the Minister's attention so that he is aware of this.
Personally, I have no problem with the information and, as I said before, the more information that we have, the better I think it is. However, I want the Minister to be cognizant of the fact that some people may not interpret the information as the government, or the Minister, having good intentions, and I think the Minister should be aware of that.
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I thank the Member for her representation,
Page Number 2506
but I can assure the Member that the department brought it forward and said that those were the total costs in salaries, and we were planning on including it on the page. If those people out there have some concerns, I want to say that it was not intentional - it was just some information. If Members are not interested in having the information, I can possibly ask the department to not bother to include it in the future. I think that it is useful information for those who want to know how much it costs overall to run our public schools.
Public Schools in the amount of $53,690,000 agreed to
On Advanced Education
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
The total budget for advanced education is $14,797,000. The branch is composed of three separate areas: administration, planning and support; labour market development; and training programs. The total branch budget of $14,797,000 is listed on page 98 of the main estimates. The 14-percent increase is due mainly to a payment to the land claims trust fund of $2.4 million. Overall, personnel has decreased by $178,000. This results from the combined wage restraint, as well as savings in administration. Another reduction of $18,000 is due mainly to reduced costs of out-of-territory travel.
Ms. Moorcroft:
The Minister just indicated that the reduction was due to personnel reductions, not just the wage restraint, but savings in administration. There is no breakdown for the deputy minister's office. Can the Minister tell me where they have made personnel savings in administration?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
The deputy minister's office is under finance and administration; it is not even in here.
Ms. Moorcroft:
Can the Minister explain, then, what the savings in administration were that he was just referring to - the personnel savings in administration that formed part of his comments in his opening remarks?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
There are two vacant positions, which are a training employment position and an industrial consultant.
Ms. Moorcroft:
I would like to thank the Minister for providing a briefing by departmental officials on the advanced education budget. It was quite helpful. I will be asking some questions relating to the information that was provided at that time. Perhaps to improve the briefing the next time, if there were more policy or programs people there to provide information that was more extensive about the line items, that might be helpful.
I mentioned in general debate, and I note again, that the information in the budget is less than we have had in previous years. In many cases, the 1992-93 actuals are not included. That has sometimes led to more questions than the Minister may have preferred.
The college budget is the main portion of the advanced education budget. As a former employee of the college, I have some knowledge of the budget demands there. I would have expected them to look for more money than they have received. However, I would like the Minister to give us some information about the college's request for funding. Did they request additional funding?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I think the college did correspond with me in January. They requested a 19-percent increase in their budget at that time. I informed them that that was not in the cards. Basically, I asked them to hold the line on their budget. Overall, the college feels that it can now live within its means in this budget.
Ms. Moorcroft:
Will the college be able to maintain the current level and mix of programs and services with the budget they have been given?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I hope they can. We have just completed a college evaluation. I am sure the college will be looking at that and deciding whether or not there needs to be changes to the existing programs and what they may be doing in the future; however, I feel they can.
I believe I remember telling the Member last year that the college's financial position was that they had almost $700,000 in the bank. The balance of funds at the end of this year is $1,400,000. They do have some money in the bank. They are operating in a fiscally responsible manner. I am hoping that they can meet their needs without cutting major programs.
Ms. Moorcroft:
Indeed, and I think I also stated last year that the college does require some funding to be kept aside for contingencies. In this budget, we have a $2 million contingency for the Yukon government, and it is certainly prudent for the college to maintain a contingency fund as well. I know that the college has made significant cuts in the administration activities and positions and that they have no more room to cut.
I have asked the Minister previously about reclassification, which was a transition issue. Previously, there had been a commitment to cover the cost of reclassification of positions at the college. Is that money still available to the college?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I advised the college that we would not be providing the extra funds they needed. I think they needed about $380,000 the first year and about $150,000 every year thereafter - somewhere in that neighbourhood. I advised the college that we would not be providing that and that they would have to find that within their budget.
Ms. Moorcroft:
What are the Minister's guiding principles in the area of advanced education, and particularly with regard to the college. Does he feel that there is too much emphasis on academic orientation?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I met with the board twice in the last two months and talked about various things at the college. The board did ask me what our government expected from the college, or what direction our government saw the college going in.
I stressed three or four areas. One area was the necessary training for First Nations people, so they can administer their land claims when they receive the transfer of their land claims. I stressed to the college that with today's high cost of university and college training outside of the Yukon, we should be trying to do an outstanding job on our first two years of academic studies at Yukon College for post-secondary Yukon students, so that they can stay in town and go to a more affordable college to gain the necessary experience and credits that they need to go on to future studies. We should do a good job of that and we should make sure that the kinds of credits we are giving the students are ones that will be acceptable at other universities throughout the country.
The other area I spoke about was the sense that I had that the college had to serve the business community and be seen to serve the economy of the Yukon in a better way. The two areas, specifically, were mining and tourism. There were apparently very few or no programs at the college related to mining or tourism and yet, they are the Yukon's two major industries. The college has accepted all of those and, I believe, is working very hard to look at those kinds of areas in the future for developing new initiatives and new programs.
Ms. Moorcroft:
Is the Minister prepared to provide a copy of the college evaluation for the Members of the House?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
It is my understanding that the evaluation will be made public, but the Department of Education and the college are now examining the evaluation and developing responses to the recommendations. I believe that probably, by the end of May or some time in early June, the report and the actions resulting from the recommendations will be released.
Ms. Moorcroft:
I was asking the Minister about his commitment to the reclassification, which he indicated was something that the college was going to have to cover themselves.
The college has to absorb the increased costs of the reclassification and they have to consider inflation. They have received the
Page Number 2507
same number of dollars this year as they have the previous year and they have to cover increased employment benefit costs as a result of the collective agreement.
Under the college's memorandum of understanding with the Department of Education, the college cannot incur a deficit and they are trying to find a way to deal with the inadequate funding situation.
Last year, the government eliminated funding for Television Northern Canada and said that it could be paid out of the base grant and, without any increase, they are still being told that they have to provide Television Northern Canada.
How can the government expect the college to provide programming at current levels with these funding shortfalls?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
This particular college, as far as government-funded colleges goes, is one of the heaviest funded colleges in the country. The college does receive a reasonable amount of money to run its programs, but I guess the college has realized that it has to prioritize its activities, focus on the areas that Yukoners would like to see the college in and provide quality service in those areas at a lower cost.
I think the college is doing a very good job in managing its existing budget. The college has reduced its administration costs and it is also now exploring new ways to draw in some private sector funding. Colleges and universities all across the country do this, and Yukon College is no exception.
The college is now working very hard to encourage private sector donations or funding of some kind to help support some of its programs.
Ms. Moorcroft:
I am aware that the college has in the past received a number of private fundings from research agencies and other foundations that do fund groups. They have been doing that all along and I certainly expect them to continue to do so.
The Minister talked about priorities. If we debate priorities and look at the choices the Yukon Party is making, I have to point out that there has been a decline in the commitment to education in this budget. The net O&M funding and the net capital funding have gone down in the current year budget from previous years. If the $9 million were being spent in education, it would mean that the college could meet its needs. It would also mean that the government would be able to truly negotiate with their teachers.
I would like to ask the Minister a specific question about the college's financial position. The YTG grant cheque was not received at the time of the preparation of college board of governors' package for the May 7 meeting in Teslin, nor was the amount known.
Each day that the annual grant cheque to the college is late costs the college approximately $1,500 in interest income. It is a concern that the government was late with the grant cheque. I believe they received it around April 20. Could they not have worked this out by April 1 and could they not have let the college know by March 31 what their grant was going to be and have done something to get the cheque to them at the beginning of the fiscal year so that they would not lose thousands of dollars in interest income?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
There are several reasons the cheque was not received earlier. One reason was that we had not yet tabled our budget and we should not be sending out cheques to various organizations and announcing how much they are getting in a given year without first tabling the budget. Secondly, I understand the agreement was not signed until just before the cheque was delivered. The cheque was hand delivered, I believe, on April 22. The cheque amount was $10,099,000, which was the base grant. There was $300,000 in the capital grant, $300,000 for the bachelor of social work program and $15,000 for the Carcross lease grant - for a total of $10,714,000. In addition, the college receives, over the course of the year, some indirect support from the department: data processing and financial system support, the use of the pool vehicles, mail processing and postages, certain insurance coverages and investment services.
These services are not easily quantified, but together with the cost of the utilities that we supply - and the cost of utilities includes an inflation factor if the utilities go up in price - to the campus and the community campus leases, it is estimated that the college costs directly provided by the government are more that $1.3 million over and above the grant.
It is significant, and there is a bit of an inflation factor built in there by the fact that we pay for the heat, oil and light in many of the facilities.
Mrs. Firth:
I have a couple of questions for the Minister about the college. I have noticed, from the Yukon Gazette, that the chair or president of the college board has been reappointed for another year term. Can the Minister tell me if he made that appointment?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
Yes, it came through Cabinet, but I recommended that appointment.
Mrs. Firth:
I have an outstanding piece of legislation on the Order Paper that would, in effect, amend the College Act so that the other board members could choose the chair. This is the second time now that the Minister has appointed the chair. He has also indicated to me publicly and in this House that he supported the concept of the board choosing its own chair. I would like to ask the Minister if he is ever going to amend that act so that can happen, or am I going to have to follow through with the private Member's bill that I have on the Order Paper?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I think we are going to have to bring the act into the House for some amendments in the near future. One of the things the evaluation looked at was the act, its relationship to the board and some of the issues the Member has raised in the House. When the actions resulting from the recommendations are completed and released in late May or early June, the Member will see that the area of the board was addressed in the evaluation.
Mrs. Firth:
Is the Minister indicating that, perhaps in the fall, there could be some amendments to the College Act and that one of them could be the process of choosing the chair of the board?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
After my commitments on the Historic Resources Act, I am a bit reluctant to commit to the fall; however, in one of these falls, we will be dealing with the College Act, I suspect. That is the intent. We will move toward that, but whether it will be this fall or next spring depends on the legislative agenda.
Mrs. Firth:
I think the Minister has already stood up in the House and made a commitment that he would look at it and bring forward an amendment in the fall. That is why I have not proceeded with my private Member's bill. I think it was last fall. The Leader of the Official Opposition is making a comical comment about "after the government falls". That is the fall after which the legislation will come forward.
I want to stress to the Minister that I would like to see that particular change made. I am looking forward to getting a copy of the report and the evaluation that has been done at the college. I would also like to have an opportunity to review the recommendations. I may have further comments to add once we have had an opportunity to see the recommendations.
I wanted to ask the Minister a couple of other questions. The college board chair and the president of the college used to come before the Legislature to respond to Members' questions about their budget. We seem to have moved away from that practice, and I would like to ask the Minister if he still supports that concept and whether or not it is possible to have a college board representative come before us to give us more detailed answers with respect to where the money is being spent and the college's priorities and plans.
Page Number 2508
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
That might be a useful exercise and I will raise that issue with the college board. I would like to comment briefly on the Member's comments about bringing acts in after the government falls. I think that the legislation has to be brought in sooner than that; I do not think we can wait seven years.
Mrs. Firth:
I am not going to be argumentative; I will let that one pass. I am sure that if I photocopied that and put it up on one of the billboards downtown, there would be mass hysteria, as one of the Members said. I think that many people would get quite a laugh out of it.
That is my personal opinion, it does not really mean a lot right now.
In light of all the expectations with respect to saving money and reducing the cost of operations of government, has the Minister had any discussions with the board with respect to the wages that are paid to the college employees and professors? I am looking specifically to see if there has been any discussion with respect to the college employees taking a two-percent rollback and arriving at any cost savings in their total budget of $10 million-plus, just in the area of employees' wages.
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I have not discussed that specifically with the board or the chair, but the college budget system runs, I believe, from July to the end of June every year, so they are just going to be going into negotiations shortly with their workers for the contract that is expiring. We felt it would be quite short notice to impose two percent on them at this time. Actually, they see a bit of benefit from not having it imposed, after seeing the same level of transfer from this time last year, but they do have the opportunity for lead time, knowing that they are not going to be getting more money, so they will have to deal with that at the negotiating table. They can also see what we are doing, so they are going to have to deal with that in a responsible way. I do not really want to interfere with the collective bargaining at the college.
Mrs. Firth:
I thought the college had just signed a contract. Maybe it was a few months ago, but I remember quite clearly reading the press releases, so I do not think they are up for renegotiation for awhile. The Minister is muttering something about six months. Perhaps he could just clarify that for the record. It is not so much when they are negotiating. The questions I want to get answered are with respect to whether the government has made any demands on the college board about saving money in personnel costs. The Minister made an interesting comment this afternoon about how they were not going to impose the legislation on the college. Is he telling us that the Cabinet considered that, or discussed whether or not the wage restraint legislation should apply to the college employees?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
In the course of discussions of any kind of decision like that, I suppose it comes up. The decision was made. The college negotiates. It is an independent body and negotiates with its own union. We give a base grant every year to the college and they carry on their own negotiations. We do not tell them what to do with their employees. I think they got the message loud and clear that there is not going to be more money, so I think they are going to have to address that in the negotiations themselves, if they are going to be responsible. I expect that might happen.
Mrs. Firth:
What the Minister is saying is that they actually did discuss it in Cabinet and consider it, but because it was an independent board that was responsible for the wages and negotiations, they decided not to include even the college employees in the rollback legislation - is that correct?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
The decision is that the college is an independent body. They negotiate on their own. We deal with our employees and they deal with their employees. We transfer funds in capital block funding and they deal with it their way. We are not going to interfere in the collective bargaining.
Mrs. Firth:
Does the Minister meet with the chair of the board of the college? If so, how often, and what is the nature of the discussions? Does he meet with the president of the college? If so, how often, and what is the nature of those discussions?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
In the year and one-half that we have been in office, I have met with the board itself three times. I have had discussions with the chair possibly a half-dozen times on various matters. We have discussions from time to time as issues arise. My officials meet on a monthly basis with the president of the college. I have met twice now. Once was an informal introduction, and another time I met with the new president of the college at a board meeting.
Mrs. Firth:
I am more concerned about the meetings with the chair of the board - the meetings that the Minister has more frequently - about six times, he said. What kind of issues would usually come up for discussion? Perhaps the Minister could answer that first.
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
We just have general discussions. For instance, if the chair is passing through town, we may meet for half an hour and talk about general issues of the college. In the last year or so, most of the discussions have been about the budget and the 19-percent increase they asked for in January. We met in January and talked about that. The discussions are mainly about budgetary items and such things.
Ms. Moorcroft:
The Minister referred to some College Act amendments that they were going to be bringing in this fall, or before the fall. I would like to ask what the nature of those amendments is, and why they were not referred to in his introductory remarks.
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I would prefer, at a request of the college, to wait until the evaluation is tabled and the recommendations from the evaluation are here before I even talk about any of the changes to the act.
The one change that has been contemplated was the change that was put forward by the Member for Riverdale South and that was to allow the board to choose its own chair. Other than that, the act has been in place now for a few years; there may be some housekeeping things to do, but I know the evaluation did hear concerns of people out there about the board's composition. When the college has prepared its response and wants to release the response, then I will be more than happy to discuss it at that time.
Ms. Moorcroft:
Is the Minister contemplating any changes in the nature of the college, having it no longer remaining as an independent body?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
No, I am not contemplating those kinds of changes.
Ms. Moorcroft:
Is the Minister contemplating changes that would alter the general nature of the board - where there would continue to be a required representation of women, of business and labour interests, First Nation groups, and just generally being representative of the Yukon community?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I would ask the Member to be patient and wait until the evaluation is out. I met with the college board last Friday night and they are preparing a response to some of the recommendations that are in the report. The feeling is that there will be a press release and the report released some time in June. At that time, I would be prepared to comment on the evaluation and the recommendations therein.
Ms. Moorcroft:
Is the Minister going to be taking his direction from the college and from the recommendations the board brings forward, based on the evaluation, or is he going to be imposing the direction on these legislative changes?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I will be looking at the recommendations.
Page Number 2509
The department has already been working with the college on the actions resulting from those recommendations. We have been working in cooperation with the college on those, and I would hope that that is the way it will come out when the report is released.
Ms. Moorcroft:
The college graduation is coming up soon, for both their regular programs and the Yukon native teacher education program. Has the Minister made any commitment for hiring the graduates of the YNTEP?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
We do not guarantee anyone a job, if that is what the Member is asking me. However, if there are job openings, priority is given to the YNTEP students if they are qualified for them. I believe there are 10 graduates this year from this program, and we will have to see where the positions are and whether or not they are qualified for them. There is no absolute guarantee. We do not remove someone from a job to give a YNTEP graduate a position.
Ms. Moorcroft:
I would expect that after completing a four-year accredited university course of study the YNTEP graduates would be qualified for jobs as teachers within the public schools program, and that the whole purpose of the program was to hire more First Nations teachers in all Yukon communities.
I have some further questions on other parts of the advanced education budget, other than the college. Would this be a convenient time to take a break, Mr. Chair, or would you like to continue?
Chair:
We will continue.
Ms. Moorcroft:
One of the programming objectives of advanced education is to work with designated equity groups, developing and integrating specific labour force development strategies. According to statistics provided by Department of Education officials, there was no participation by women in trades and apprenticeship training initiatives, except for one female carpentry apprentice.
I think the statistics speak for themselves. What initiatives will the government be taking to fulfill its program objective and ensure a more equitable participation by women in the trades?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
One area I do have control over is within the public schools system. We just announced the other day a program for young women, to give them some preparatory training and background for the trades. Those are the kinds of things I have raised with the college, and they are the kinds of things that were addressed in the evaluation by many people - "what are you providing, and how are you providing it?" Those kinds of questions were asked. I hope, in many of the recommendations, the Member will see those issues raised.
I think there will be some improvement. The college is aware of that, but we cannot force people to apply for the trades positions. We have to make it rather attractive for women to get into them by promoting them a little more, starting in our public schools system and getting young women interested in going into the trades in the future, and by pointing out there are opportunities there.
Perhaps there is an opportunity here for the college to put on a seminar one evening or one day at the college, where they invite Yukon women to come up to the college and have a few trades women as speakers to tell how they got into their trade, how it has worked out fine for them, has provided a steady income, and how there is a future in it. Perhaps that would encourage more young women to get involved in trades.
Ms. Moorcroft:
I think the one-week summer camp, while it is a good program and one I did compliment the Minister on yesterday, is a minimal effort. I would point out to the Minister that there is an existing program within his department - in advanced education. The statistics show that they have a very poor record of women participating in that program. I hope it does improve and that they actively work to find ways of improving it.
The budget projects a drop in rural participants and rural government employees in adult education programs. Have there been any efforts to increase rural participation?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
This would be a question that would be better directed to the chair of Yukon College, if they were here, as the Member is getting more specific about why the college programs are not attracting people. We can run all the programs we want but, if people do not want to sign up for them, we cannot force them.
I might have left the Member with a misconception about the YNTEP program, when I said "if the teachers are qualified". The Member knows, of course, that the teachers who come out of the YNTEP program will be qualified. However, if there are only 14 or 15 openings, and a large majority of those openings are specialized teachers, such as chemistry, physics or advanced math teachers, the people from the YNTEP program may not be qualified that first year to teach grade 10 or 12 physics or math. That is what I meant when I referred to positions that were not open. Some of the positions are quite specialized. Most of the teachers will start in the elementary school system.
I am hopeful that we can find all or most of them a job. However, there is not a lot of turnover this year, so far. We will just have to wait and see what happens between now and the end of the year. However, all efforts will be made to place these teachers in Yukon jobs. After all, that is the whole purpose of the program.
Ms. Moorcroft:
The Minister is right about that being the whole purpose of the program, and I am not going to pursue that line of questioning with him, because I think the Minister might get himself into trouble and we could get into a further delay in debate on the advanced education budget.
Would the Minister consider inviting the chair of the college board, and/or the president of the college to Committee of the Whole to answer our questions?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
About seven minutes ago, the Member for Riverdale South asked me that very question. At that time I replied that that was a very good suggestion and that I would ask the chair of the board to attend. I think I answered the question.
Ms. Moorcroft:
I did not hear that particular answer from the Minister, but perhaps we will see what Hansard shows. He has said that he will ask them about it, but he has not said that he will get them in here.
Some Hon. Member:
(Inaudible)
Ms. Moorcroft:
The Member for McIntyre-Takhini is telling me that the Minister, when he was in Opposition, used to insist on the Minister ordering the college board to attend. Does the Minister have a further answer? Is he going to make a commitment here?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I have no problem with the chair of the board attending in this House. I think it would be very useful and I will ask them to be here. If the Members opposite feel it is really necessary, I will order them to be here.
Ms. Moorcroft:
I am glad that the Minister can recognize a good idea when he hears one. Can I ask the Minister why he did not arrange for this to occur prior to us getting to the education budget, since it has been past practice.
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
During the previous education budget that passed this House, there was not a squeak from the other side about having the college board here. They appeared to be quite satisfied, but if Members opposite wish them to be here, I will ask them to appear before the House next time.
Ms. Moorcroft:
I would like to ask a question in relation to the labour market development activities. One of the notes that
Page Number 2510
was provided in the briefing, which also is the information that the Minister is reading into the record as we go through the lines, is that activity on labour market development activity includes "the interface with federal initiatives on human resource development," and that is a quote. That is not my English. Can the Minister explain what is meant by "the interface with federal initiatives on human resource development", please?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
Those are the Axworthy initiatives that are emanating from the federal government. I had a conference call today with the western Ministers of Education and one of the strongest points that was made by all the Ministers of Education was the fact that the initiatives that were coming out of the federal government in a big rush a month ago have suddenly stopped, and no one in each of the western provinces is quite sure of what we are supposed to do with some of the training initiatives.
So, some concern is being expressed out there, especially because summer is getting on and time is passing us by, and there seems to be some kind of stalling now happening at the federal Cabinet level. The kind of initiatives we talked about seem to have ground to a halt and western Ministers are now, in some cases, proceeding on their own or wondering where we should go from here, because we have not heard much more from the government in Ottawa.
Ms. Moorcroft:
Other than the Minister participating on a conference call with other western Ministers, has the department been active in any other "interface with federal initiatives"?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
We are working with the federal government on the youth services corps and the youth internship program. Both of these costs are paid fully by the federal government and there is going to be a pilot project, I understand, in the Yukon, but the details are not worked out yet. In the youth services corps, activity is included in the following areas: sustainable development, environmental projects, community development and learning entrepreneurships, starting or expanding a small business, and a personal development program directed toward aboriginal youth to learn enhanced personal lifeskills. That is the youth services corps.
The youth internship program is directed toward the structured entry level of training opportunities for young people into the labour market. It will include partnerships with business, labour, government, education and the training community to establish alternate training opportunities for these youth currently entering the labour market directly from high school.
We are not quite clear where the federal government is headed at the present time. We are initiating some of our own and working with Yukon College - for example, in the current tourism program - but this is an area where we have some concern about where the federal government is leading us. We hope that we can get this ironed out fairly quickly. As I said, it was a fairly hot topic of conversation this morning with the western Ministers of Education on what is happening in every province. It seems to have ground to a halt in every province west of Manitoba.
Ms. Moorcroft:
The budget also shows a decrease of two percent in the total value of the Yukon training allowances. There is a drop of $16,911. According to the note, the higher 1993-94 numbers were due to a greater number of persons with dependents undergoing training. Does this mean that fewer single parents will be receiving training in 1994-95? Why are they estimating that there will be a lower number of people with dependents taking training in the coming year?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I am advised that the number of married people who are taking training has decreased and that is why there is a decrease in that area.
Ms. Moorcroft:
I would think that the Minister would agree that lack of education and lack of access to education can be a significant barrier to people having an independent lifestyle and being able to support themselves. I think that we would want to increase the participation in training, particularly of single parents with dependents, so that they can support themselves. Is the department engaging in any initiatives that would increase that level of participation?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
The training programs are open to everybody. We are not discriminating and saying that only single people can apply for these programs. There will be a lot of single people, I suppose, that do avail themselves of the training that will be coming up in the future.
On Activities
On Administration
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
This administration has the highest component in the base grant to Yukon College of $10,099,000. The grant level to Yukon College is being maintained. The major cause for the decrease is the fact that the land claim training trust fund of $2.4 million is not budgeted in 1994-95. Other factors affecting this line were a reduction in outside travel, $8,000; increased communication, $3,000; and inclusion of the Carcross community campus lease with the Yukon College grant, $15,000.
Administration in the amount of $10,299,000 agreed to
On Planning and Support Services
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
We just talked about this one. Actually, this is an error in the budget. It should have read "labour market development activities". The name change was inadvertently missed when the budget was being constructed. The major decrease for the funding was the transfer of positions from this unit to the new evaluation, research and planning unit, and adjustment of student grants of $100,000, and the effectively estimated wage restraint.
Planning and Support Services in the amount of $2,945,000 agreed to
On Training Programs
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
This line item for $1,553,000 includes such areas as trades and apprenticeship programs, and a student training employment program of $189,000, the summer students job program called "Challenge 94" of $108,000, the operation of a summer computer camp at $40,255, apprenticeship incentive marketing at $99,000. There is also an increase in the trades apprenticeship training initiative of $237,000. The $237,000 total is being allocated for trades upgrading courses for people seeking trades certification, as well as trades updating courses for currently certified trades people, and carpentry apprentice level courses. Funding is there to help persons outside of Whitehorse to access training, as well as service seed money for federal initiatives under the Human Resource ministry of the federal government.
Ms. Moorcroft:
Does this line item include the funding of the assistant deputy minister of advanced education position, and the other advanced education personnel?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
No, they are in the administration line, two lines above.
Ms. Moorcroft:
Can I just ask the Minister then to clarify whether there have been any reductions in personnel in that assistant deputy minister office in the administration?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I am advised that there is no change there.
Training Programs in the amount of $1,553,000 agreed to
Advanced Education in the amount of $14,797,000 agreed to
On Libraries and Archives
Chair:
Is there any debate on libraries and archives?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
There are four separate activities in this area. They are administration, technical services, library and public services and Yukon Archives. The program activities in this budget include such activities as the provision of public library liaison services to community library boards, coordination of
Page Number 2511
collections across the Yukon College libraries and public school libraries, administration of the Access to Information Act, working with First Nations to provide archival and library services to the Yukon First Nations and serving as a repository for government records of a permanent value and preserving the documentary heritage of the Yukon.
Funding to the community library boards of $234,000 is included in the transfer payments, as well as the 37-percent increase in the other allotment on page 104.
The main estimates are the result of the enhancement to the books and periodicals budget of the public libraries program.
Ms. Moorcroft:
Does the Minister have any progress to report on the administration of the Access to Information Act legislation?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I believe that bill is handled by the Executive Council Office.
Chair:
We will have a brief recess at this time.
Recess
Chair:
I will now call Committee of the Whole to order. We are discussing library and archives.
On Activities
On Administration
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
The decrease is due to the estimated impact of wage restraint.
Ms. Moorcroft:
Could the Minister give a further breakdown of what administration covers?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I will have to get back to the Member. I believe that is for the director of library services and the main administration portion of the libraries branch.
Ms. Moorcroft:
This is a Minister who wants to get back to basics and surely he thinks books are a basic. I know that the Minister was making a comment before the break about it being only libraries, but I would like to have some information about what the $266,000 is for other than the fact that a $2,000 decrease is due to wage restraint.
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
This is for personnel costs and, if the Member would like, I can bring back a list of all the personnel involved and their positions.
Administration in the amount of $266,000 agreed to
On Technical Services
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
This is again the impact of wage restraint.
Ms. Moorcroft:
Well, there is a five-percent reduction here. Is there a five-percent wage restraint program just for technical services and two percent elsewhere?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
There is $152,091 in salaries and wages; $300 in repairs and maintenance; $1,000 in supplies; $2,000 in postage and freight; $5,000 in program materials; and $1,000 in communications. That is for a total $9,300 and a total of $161,391.
Ms. Moorcroft:
What was the five-percent cut of the $9,000? If the Minister does not know, he can bring the information back to me.
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I think it is about $7,000.
Technical Services in the amount of $161,000 agreed to
On Public Library Services
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
The major changes that affected this unit were an increase in funding for the book and periodical purchases of $66,000, which provides materials for all public libraries throughout the Yukon, and the estimated impact of wage restraint.
Ms. Moorcroft:
They must, then, have had requests for increased services. The Minister says it was an increase, but I see that it was forecast as $955,000 this year and $954,000 for the 1994-95 year.
Does the Minister consider the holdings of the Whitehorse Public Library adequate?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I suppose one would say that it is an adequate supply, but one can always improve on it. I think one should always be trying to improve on it. I guess the point is: adequate as compared to what? I think it is a fairly good library, if that is what the Member is asking me.
Ms. Moorcroft:
I see a small reduction in the budget for the public library services. I think that books are an important investment. I think it is important, as the Minister said, that we improve the holdings of the public library. I would just like to get a sense from the Minister on whether or not he is going to consider coming forward with an increase next year.
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
There is a $66,000 increase in it this year for the purchase of books. I think it is important enough that it is a significant increase this year.
Ms. Moorcroft:
The Minister said that there is $66,000 increase in the purchase of books. I am looking at the budget page, and it shows the figures of $955,000 for last year and $954,000 this year. If they have increased the purchases of books, they must have cut somewhere else, or am I reading these numbers incorrectly?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
There was the impact of wage restraint, which reduces the budget, and the increase of the books, which brings the budget back up to where it was.
Public Library Services in the amount of $954,000 agreed to
On Yukon Archives
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
The $13,000 difference affecting this unit is the estimated impact of wage restraint.
Yukon Archives in the amount of $651,000 agreed to
Libraries and Archives in the amount of $2,032,000 agreed to
On Evaluation, Research and Planning
Chair:
Is there any general debate?
On Activity
On Administration
Ms. Moorcroft:
Did this unit have any participation in the college evaluation just completed?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
No, that was an independent group. It was agreed upon by the college and the Department of Education to use that particular group and set out the guidelines.
Ms. Moorcroft:
Can the Minister tell me how much of this budget included funding for the Educational Appeal Tribunal, whether there have been any meetings of this tribunal, whether there are any anticipated for the coming year, and what the funding is for the education review?
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I can get back to the Member. I know there have been some meetings. I recall them meeting in last year's supplementary. They did just meet a few weeks ago to discuss a couple of appeals. I can bring that forward for the Member, possibly in a briefing note or legislative return.
Administration in the amount of $325,000 agreed to
Evaluation, Research and Planning in the amount of $325,000 agreed to
Department of Education agreed to
Department of Economic Development
Chair:
Is there any general debate?
Hon. Mr. Ostashek:
Before I begin, I have a document for tabling here on loans and the different programs.
I am pleased to introduce the 1994-95 operation and maintenance main budget for the Department of Economic Development. This budget reflects this government's commitment to fiscal restraint.
Highlights of this budget include the appointment of a mining facilitator and the implementation of the Yukon oil and gas management program.
Page Number 2512
The mining facilitator position has recently been filled. Implementation of the Northern Oil and Gas Accord is underway. An office has been established, and several positions are fully staffed.
As well, there is a lot of work to be done this year drafting policies, legislation, and regulation through a public consultation process.
The 1994-95 operation and maintenance main estimates for this department is estimated at $3,230,000. With the hiring of the mining facilitator, the administration budget is increased by 11 percent over last year. The establishment of the Northern Accord office also increased the budget for the economic policy, planning and research branch by 17 percent.
However, expenses for other Economic Development branches have decreased. A 27-percent reduction in expenses has been achieved in the energy and mines branch. This includes a reduction in contract expenditures, and an eight-percent decrease has been created in the economic programs branch.
Operation and maintenance revenues are expected to be $2,134,000. Approximately $2,428,000 was forecast for the 1993-94 revenues.
If federal settlement legislation for the four First Nations who have signed final agreements is passed in the 1994-95 fiscal year, these First Nations will be allocated royalties. Transfer payments are forecasted to be $25,000 to CYI for consultation and participation in oil and gas issues.
I am prepared to answer questions from Members opposite.
Mr. McDonald:
I have a few questions to put to the Minister before we get into the lines.
First of all, a number of planning documents have surfaced from time to time since November of 1992 and each of them has had its own life and vitality for a period of time and then they seem to drop out of common currency after awhile. I refer specifically to, in the beginning, the Yukon Party's four-year plan, which seemed to be the document that drove most of the government's thinking in terms of establishing priorities for economic development. Then we received two versions of the document entitled Toward Self-Sufficiency by the 21st Century. Then we received an industrial support policy, which was made public about a month ago and contains some elements in the government's thinking about how they are going to promote and further their own economic objectives.
Can I ask the Minister to start by explaining what has happened to the Yukon Party's four-year plan, whether or not all the elements are still active, still considered operative, so to speak. Also, are the two versions of the the document Toward Self-Sufficiency by the 21st Century still active? Are they still in use? Has there been any recrafting of them, or are all the elements contained in the two versions of that document still active? Just a general response would be desirable.
Hon. Mr. Ostashek:
Both the four-year plan and the Toward Self-Sufficiency by the 21st Century documents are policy statements of this government as to what direction they want to see the Yukon move in. They are both still active documents. From that flowed the industrial support policy, which is now a public document, as did the Yukon energy one - the public utility producer policy, the one where we will buy energy from private people, if they can sell it to us for less than it costs us to produce it. Those documents are basically policy statements, and they are still active.
Mr. McDonald:
I was wondering, because I did not notice any reference in the budget speeches to the policy statements entitled Toward Self-Sufficiency by the 21st Century. I would like to get something clear. Did the Minister say that all of the elements of both versions of the document entitled Toward Self-Sufficiency by the 21st Century are still active?
Hon. Mr. Ostashek:
I would have to review the document. I do not believe all elements are being actively pursued at this point. The document was put out at the time for a reason. It was a basic philosophy of what this government believes in. There are certain aspects of it that are being pursued, such as the non-utility generators and the industrial support policy, which flowed from those documents.
Mr. McDonald:
I think it is fairly important to get a clear statement on this matter. Could the Minister provide us with an update of the document entitled Toward Self-Sufficiency by the 21st Century, particularly with respect to those items the department and the government are actively pursuing. We know, for example, the most notorious element is one we have not heard about - the railway proposals. I think most people would admit that it is not currently operative, so to speak. We certainly did not hear anything about that in the budget speech and, frankly, did not expect to.
Nevertheless, there are probably some more serious issues that have to be addressed. We have tried to address them in the House in the past, with respect to some apparently contradictory elements of policy contained in the Yukon Party's four-year plan that seem to have not yet been resolved. For example, the whole issue of providing bid preferences to companies versus the open-border issue - which in my mind, at least, is a contradiction that remains to be resolved - did not seem to be resolved in at least one departmental strategic plan, which adopted both objectives simultaneously, and then proceeded to resolve the issue.
So, in that particular case, with respect to the bid preference versus open borders, which direction is the government going?
Hon. Mr. Ostashek:
I have no problem standing here and telling the Member opposite that we have moved away from the bid preference. With the interprovincial trade barriers coming down, we believe we can address the issue of local contractors through other means - and we do that. We are moving away from that and more toward the open-border policy, but we still have the ability to work in some outlying areas, where need be, to be able to give some sort of a break to our local contractors. We do not necessarily need to talk about contractors coming from Alberta, British Columbia, or somewhere else. There is a real problem in some of the rural communities with contractors coming from Whitehorse, so we are also trying to address those issues. Those are issues that we are trying to address, and we will be addressing those through the contract review that is going on right now.
Mr. McDonald:
I will get into that a little more thoroughly with the Minister responsible for Government Services, because I think that particular issue was not specifically addressed in the discussion documents, to my knowledge, that were issued by the Department of Government Services in reviewing contract regulations, i.e., community bid preference. In fact, bid preferences were not raised by contractors at all as an issue that they wanted to see addressed. That was an issue I had raised with the previous Minister of Government Services and Economic Development, when the opportunity arose.
I would only mention to the Minister that any hint or suggestion by the government a few years ago that we would actively promote a community bid preference for rural contractors would have been roundly criticized by the Opposition of the day, who felt that the rules should apply evenly and equally to everyone in the territory.
So, if the government is actively pursuing that option, then I will take it up with the Minister of Government Services. For me, at least, that clearly signals a fairly major change in Yukon Party policy. There will be an opportunity to address that with the appropriate Minister. Right now, I am interested in the subject of interprovincial trade negotiations and the Yukon government's
Page Number 2513
position in those negotiations.
Can the Minister tell us, first of all, what the state of those negotiations are and what the government's position has been at those talks, with respect to interprovincial trade?
Hon. Mr. Ostashek:
Just to return to the preferential bid, I do not want the Member opposite to misinterpret me. We are not trying to establish bid preference for rural contractors. We are looking at ways to address the bonding issue for smaller contractors to put them in a position where they can bid competitively for these jobs. That seems to be a real problem and is one of the areas that will be addressed along the way. We are exploring all avenues in an effort to create a level playing field.
On interprovincial trade, the deputy minister is in Winnipeg right now. I believe that today is the first day of meetings. I think I saw something, either in the Whitehorse Star tonight or on the radio, that they appear to have reached some agreement on a mechanism for settling disputes among the provinces. I will have a full report from the deputy minister when she gets back.
Mr. McDonald:
First of all, has the government been an active participant in these negotiations until now? Can the Minister tell us, in general terms, what the policy objectives have been by the Yukon government in those discussions? What has the Yukon government attempted to extract from those discussions?
Hon. Mr. Ostashek:
There have been all kinds of meetings on interprovincial trade. There have been meetings of committees and subcommittees. We have not attended all of them, but I did provide a list for the Member for Riverdale South, I believe, of meetings that I attended, discussing interprovincial trade.
Some Hon. Member:
(Inaudible)
Hon. Mr. Ostashek:
Well, it is on its way. Anyway, they were discussed in forums that I can remember off the top of my head: the Premiers Conference, the Economic and Finance Ministers Conference in Halifax, at the First Ministers Conference in Ottawa in December of last year, and at the conference this week in Winnipeg, which the deputy minister is attending. We have attended some of the discussions and sent officials to others, if it seemed that there was anything pressing regarding the Yukon that needed to be resolved. However, a lot of the issues involve only the provinces.
The position we and the Northwest Territories have taken, and for which, with the western Premiers, we have endorsement, is that we would like the ability in outlying areas where we need some help with economic initiatives to make exceptions to open and free bid policies among jurisdictions. That was endorsed by the western Premiers and sent on to the meeting in Halifax of the Economic Development and Finance Ministers in December of last year.
That is the position we have taken up until now. At one point, at one meeting or another, there was a time line set by which to have an agreement on time lines for the removal of all interprovincial trade barriers, which was June 30 of this year. That is the deadline that the provinces are presently working toward.
Mr. McDonald:
I am trying to get a clear statement from the Minister as to what position the government has taken. Is it the position of the government that, in principle, there should be no barrier to goods or services and contractors between jurisdictions in the country, and what has the government done in those cases where the Yukon thinks a special case might be made to protect local industry. What has the Yukon government done and what have they promoted to ensure protection for local industry?
Hon. Mr. Ostashek:
As a general policy, the Member is quite right; we are talking about free movement of goods and services between jurisdictions. We want our contractors to have the ability to bid on jobs in British Columbia, Alberta and other jurisdictions in Canada, and I feel very confident that our larger contractors can hold their own with anybody.
At the Western Premiers Conference, both the Government Leader of the Northwest Territories and I made the case that there would be some exceptions. She had a larger concern because they had so many small outlying communities, and they would have to do something to give their local economic development a little bit of a headstart on the others. That did not seem to be a problem with the western Premiers at the time.
As far as a hard statement on that topic, I do not know if there is a statement written into the overall Canadian picture, but I do know that that position was endorsed at the Western Premiers Conference and put forward to the Economic Development and Finance Ministers in Halifax.
Mr. McDonald:
I am interested in how special preference may be accorded in the Yukon. Perhaps the Minister might explain what the mechanism would be for that under the proposed agreements, and specifically, what the government has been advocating.
I would also like to know whether or not the Minister has actively sought the support of local industry, trade and labour groups in the Yukon for the position that the government has taken.
I know that, in the past, when there has been any discussion about interjurisdictional regulation - and I refer to one that I was personally involved in and that was the transportation industry - there were assurances given and extensive discussions undertaken with the Yukon Transportation Association and the Northern Air Transportation Association on the question of the regulatory environment that we were proposing to establish.
Is the position that the government is taking with respect to the open-border policy supported by the trade groups? Has the government consulted with those groups and with labour?
Hon. Mr. Ostashek:
I have not personally met with them, but my understanding is that there have been discussions with them. We are ensuring that current trade practices can continue. The Member asked what areas we see as a special break; I just cannot think of one off the top of my head but I believe the wording involved something about special consideration in relation to either the Northwest Territories' or the Yukon's fragile economy in some areas. The Member asked how we could address that. First of all, we can break the contracts down so small that a big firm from outside is not going to be interested in bidding on them. That is one of the easiest ways I know of through which these issues can be addressed.
Mr. McDonald:
There are a lot of different issues circulating around here. I would like to tie down a few things and then we can work from there.
Can the Minister tell us precisely what discussions have taken place with industry at the administrative level to ensure that they are on side? I know most of the industries operating in the Yukon are small businesses, not large ones. Most businesses in the Yukon do not trade goods and services outside the territory or offer services outside the territory. Some do - the larger ones do, but it is the smaller ones that we are worried about.
Could the Minister tell us what discussions specifically have taken place?
Hon. Mr. Ostashek:
My departmental person here says there has been nothing specific, but we are trying to maintain the status quo at this time.
I would like to say to the Member opposite: that we cannot have it both ways. We cannot enter into free interprovincial trade and put up a protective fence around the Yukon. We have the federal government talking right now about the information highway where procurement of goods would be put on the highway and available to everybody across Canada by every government. That is what they are aiming for.
I believe it is in the best interests of industry to be able to
Page Number 2514
compete for contracts - the ones that can - and have the ability to do that without any barriers. That is the direction we are taking and that is the direction in which we are working.
Mr. McDonald:
Perhaps I do not understand things. The status quo provides for a Yukon exemption. I remember the Member for Porter Creek East, while he was Minister for Economic Development back in the early 1980s, I believe, negotiated a very specific exemption clause for the Yukon and Northwest Territories, so that we could take advantage of what little interference in other jurisdictions' marketplaces our industry would inflict, while ensuring that what was happening in the territory allowed for a certain measure of protection. Until a new agreement, that is the status quo, but there is the ability to seek exemption for the Yukon.
I do not understand how we are seeking a status quo arrangement and, at the same time, promoting an open-door policy for business activity into and out of the territory. Can the Minister explain that for me? I think I am confused as to what the government is saying here.
I would just point out that, when the Minister says you cannot have it both ways, that is precisely what I am trying to determine. I know we cannot have it both ways, and that is why I am asking the question.
Hon. Mr. Ostashek:
One of the ways to accomplish this would be exempting the region from free trade if unemployment is higher here than in other areas. That would be one example. Difficult climatic, geographic or other special situations are some of the areas we are discussing.
We also have the business incentive policy, which we use to keep Yukoners working, and we intend to keep that policy in place. We do not see a difficulty in the removal of interprovincial barriers if we are able to use that sort of mechanism to create employment in the Yukon and keep Yukoners working. Companies coming into the Yukon would hire local people, rather than bring people in from outside the territory.
Mr. McDonald:
I guess it is necessary to point out that, as I understand it, the business incentive policy is not a bid preference policy but a method to encourage, or entice, companies to hire locally by providing an incentive to them - essentially a cash incentive, a rebate, that they would apply for. So, it is not a bid preference policy and, consequently, one would hope that would be enough to allow us to promote local objectives as a government. That is, local hire, local material purchase, and get around any concerns that we might have with any interprovincial trade agreement and the free trade agreement between Canada and the United States.
Nevertheless, there is still an issue here. I am trying to determine what the Minister is referring to when he talks about a special preference for the Yukon that they would be trying to negotiate in the final agreement. The special preference would be based on the unemployment rates here, or the special climatic conditions, et cetera. How does that kind of special preference - if we are not going to have it both ways - jibe with the open-door policy for goods and services business opportunities?
Hon. Mr. Ostashek:
As I said, this was a position that was supported by the western Premiers on the interprovincial trade policy. It is what the Northwest Territories and ourselves will be pursuing in the final document. We want to be able to have some way to look after this through some mechanism - be it higher unemployment rates, difficult climatic or geographic conditions, or other special situations - and that is one way that both we, and the Northwest Territories, feel that we can accomplish it. It is not something we want to do for every contract that goes out in the Yukon.
We want to be able to participate with the rest of Canada on the same basis, except in special circumstances. That is the policy that we are going to be pursuing through interprovincial trade. Whether we get it or not is going to be another thing, but we are going to be pursuing it.
Mr. McDonald:
Let me characterize this slightly differently. Certainly, it is a status quo arrangement, in very general terms. It is the status quo that the Yukon and the Northwest Territories have a special arrangement, in terms of the structures of the interprovincial trading arrangements. I understand the Minister has also said that it is one of the objectives of the government to maintain the status quo.
But, the Minister has also said that we cannot have it both ways: we cannot have the special arrangements and an open-door policy. Is the Minister saying that we cannot have it both ways, but we are going to try it both ways? I am just trying to get some clarity in my mind about what the policy objectives here are.
Hon. Mr. Ostashek:
I guess the Member could put it that way if he wants. What we are saying is that we are going to try to negotiate something that will replace the agreements between governments that are there now. The closer we can get to that, the better off we will feel about it. As I say, we have a sympathetic ear from the western Premiers on that issue, so we have some support on it, and we are going to continue to pursue it.
Mr. McDonald:
I guess the government objective to promote open borders is qualified. Let us get this straight. The free trade policy, as far as the Yukon is concerned, must be qualified by the need for northern governments to undertake special arrangements where they feel that they are at a competitive disadvantage. Is that a fair statement? Does the Minister agree that that is the policy he is promoting?
Hon. Mr. Ostashek:
It is fair to say that that is what we are pursuing, yes.
I would like to make it clear to Members that there are also some provinces looking for some special circumstances in some areas. I am not sure what they all are, but I know that some came up in discussion. There will be some trade-offs. We hope that we can come out with something like this. As I said, I felt very comfortable, after the meeting in Canmore last fall, that we did have some support for our fledgling economy in the north.
Mr. McDonald:
That clarifies it. I was under the impression from the statements that have been made in the past that we would be taking a harder, stronger position with respect to absolute free and open trade. The fact that it is qualified to the extent that it is clarifies it and makes it consistent with the actions that I think the government has been taking up until now. Obviously, the Minister knows that we are not talking about free trade, as these are never free trade agreements in the sense that there are no barriers - it has been more of a controlled or managed trade - and that we are just establishing the rules by which it will all take place. Certainly, that was the position of both the American and Canadian free trade negotiators during the free trade negotiations.
I would like to ask one final question, as I see we are coming close to the end of the day. Can the Minister tell us under what specific circumstances the Yukon government would seek an exemption or plead special circumstances to allow us to seek a special arrangement? The Minister has mentioned unemployment as being a factor. Of course, we know that as bad as unemployment is here, it is worse in Newfoundland. As cold as it gets here, it also gets pretty darn cold in northern Saskatchewan. As isolated as it can be here, it is more isolated in Labrador for most communities. We are fairly close to tide water and we have a fairly extensive transportation network among communities.
Can the Minister give us perhaps a clearer picture - and if he cannot do it now, perhaps he could talk to his officials and come back tomorrow with it - about what the rationale would be for
Page Number 2515
the exemptions, what makes us unique and how they presented this question to the negotiators from other jurisdictions?
Hon. Mr. Ostashek:
I will try and get an example or two for the Member opposite. I want to make it very clear that neither ourselves nor the Northwest Territories were talking about contracts in areas such as Whitehorse or Yellowknife. We were talking about contracts that may be in the outlying communities. I will see if I can bring some examples back for the Member opposite.
Mr. Chair, in view of the time, I move that you report progress.
Motion agreed to
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I move that the Speaker do now resume the Chair.
Motion agreed to
Speaker resumes the Chair
Speaker:
I will now call the House to order.
May the House have a report from the Chair of Committee of the Whole?
Mr. Abel:
The Committee of the Whole has considered Bill No. 15, entitled Second Appropriation Act, 1994-95, and directed me to report progress on it.
Speaker:
You have heard the report from the Chair of Committee of the Whole. Are you agreed?
Some Hon. Members:
Agreed.
Speaker:
I declare the report carried.
Hon. Mr. Phillips:
I move that the House do now adjourn.
Speaker:
It has been moved by the Hon. Government House Leader that the House do now adjourn.
Motion agreed to
Speaker:
This House now stands adjourned until 1:30 p.m. tomorrow.
The House adjourned at 5:29 p.m.
The following Legislative Return was tabled May 10, 1994:
94-1-351
Watson Lake Liquor Store: corporate net income reduced by $900,000 in 1994/95 due to construction of the liquor store (Brewster)
Oral, Hansard, p. 2344
The following Sessional Paper was tabled May 10, 1994:
94-1-123
Business Development Fund, Community Development Fund, Yukon Mining Incentives Program (Grassroots-Prospector/Grubstake Programs and Evaluation Program), Mineral Development Agreement and Economic Development Agreement Project and expenditure reports for fiscal year 1993-94 (Ostashek)