Whitehorse, Yukon

Thursday, April 25, 1996 - 1:30 p.m.

Speaker: I will now call the House to order.

We will proceed at this time with silent prayers.

Prayers

DAILY ROUTINE

Speaker: We will proceed with the Order Paper.

TRIBUTES

Recognition of 66th birthday of Danny Joe

Mr. McDonald: We have a colleague in our midst who has celebrated approximately 10 birthdays in the Legislature; a wise, older man who celebrates another birthday today. I know he would rather be celebrating his 66th birthday with close friends and family but, for at least part of today, he will have to settle for the company of those of us in the Legislature. I have often heard it said that the Yukon Legislature is the next best thing to home.

I would like to ask all Members to join me in congratulating Danny Joe on his 66th birthday. He will probably be one of the last few people to ever see the benefits of the Canada Pension Plan, if and when he ever retires.Applause

Recognition of Book Day

Ms. Moorcroft: Today is Book Day in Canada. The Canadian Authors Association established Canada's Book Day as a means of encouraging people to read. As everyone knows, we have an active cultural community in the Yukon. This week is the 1996 Yukon writers festival, which began with the Nakai 24-hour playwriting contest celebrating its 10th anniversary. I hope some Members will find time to join authors in the noon-hour reading, which will continue tomorrow, as it has through the week, in the foyer of this building. We have also had the young authors conference as part of the writers festival, so I would just like to acknowledge that.

Speaker: Are there any visitors to be introduced?

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I would like to take this opportunity to introduce a visitor in our gallery. Dr. Richard D'Aeth is here with us today and he is the subject of a motion that we will be dealing with shortly, which will be appointing him to the Human Rights Commission. I would like all Members to acknowledge Dr. D'Aeth in the gallery with us today.

Applause

Speaker: Are there any returns or documents for tabling?

TABLING RETURNS AND DOCUMENTS

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I have documents for tabling.

Speaker: Are there any reports of committees?

Are there any petitions?

PETITIONS

Petition No. 10 - received

Clerk: Mr. Speaker and hon. Members of the Assembly, I have had the honour to review a petition, being Petition No. 10, of the Second Session of the Twenty-Eighth Legislative Assembly, as presented by the Hon. Member for Mount Lorne on April 24, 1996. This petition meets the requirements as to form of the Standing Orders of the Yukon Legislative Assembly.

Speaker: Petition No. 10 is accordingly deemed to be read and received.

Petition No. 11 - received

Clerk: Mr. Speaker and hon. Members of the Assembly, I have the honour to review a petition, being Petition No. 11, of the Second Session of the Twenty-Eighth Legislative Assembly, as presented by the Hon. Alan Nordling on April 24, 1996.

The petition opens in the proper form. It is addressed to the Yukon Legislative Assembly, contains an appropriate statement of the subject matter and concludes with the prayer clearly expressing the particular object the petitioners have in view.

The petition is unusual in that it contains, following the prayer, a statement explaining the subject matter of the petition in greater detail than is found in the main body of the petition. Also, there are three documents appended to the petition. Annotation 10-21 in Beauchesne's Rules and Forms states that, "Appendices may not be attached thereto whether in the shape of letters, affidavits, certificates, statistical statements or documents of any character." The statement and appended documents do not contain matter in breach of the privileges of the Assembly.

Petition No. 11, taking into account the aforementioned, meets the requirements as to form of the Standing Orders of the Yukon Legislative Assembly.

Speaker: Petition No. 11 is accordingly deemed to be read and received.

Are there any bills to be introduced?

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

Bill No. 56: Introduction and First Reading

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I move that Bill No. 56, entitled An Act to the Conflict of Interest (Members and Ministers) Act be now introduced and read a first time.

Speaker: It has been moved by the Hon. Government Leader that Bill No. 56, entitled An Act to Amend the Conflict of Interest (Members and Ministers) Act be now introduced and read a first time.

Motion for introduction and first reading of Bill No. 56 agreed to

NOTICES OF MOTION

Motion No. 119

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I give notice of the following motion:

THAT, pursuant to section 18 of the Conflict of Interest (Members and Ministers) Act, the Legislative Assembly appoint Ted Hughes as a member of the Conflict of Interest Commission for a three-year period from the date on which the Conflict of Interest (Members and Ministers) Act comes into force; and

THAT, pursuant to section 18 of the Conflict of Interest (Members and Ministers) Act, the Legislative Assembly appoint Harley Johnson as a member of the Conflict of Interest Commission for a period ending March 31, 1997, subject to a signed agreement between the Legislative Assemblies of Alberta and the Yukon and to the Legislative Assembly of Alberta amending section 3(1) of the Ombudsman Act (Alberta) to allow the Ombudsman of Alberta to hold office of trust or profit other than the Office of the Ombudsman for Alberta.

Speaker: Are there any ministerial statements?

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Yukon Oil and Gas Act

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I rise today to make a few comments on the tabling of the Yukon Oil and Gas Act, more commonly known as YOGA, which I tabled yesterday.

I know that all the Members of the Legislature share my sense of satisfaction that the Yukon is now prepared to complete the transfer process that began with the signing of the Northern Accord.

Gaining control of our energy, forestry and mineral resources is one of the primary objectives of this government. Our future economic prosperity depends on our stewardship and responsible development of our natural resources. We cannot provide that stewardship while the jurisdiction for resources remains with Ottawa. We cannot encourage investment in new development unless we can control access to resources. We cannot ensure resource conservation or protect Yukoners from the impacts of development unless we can regulate the use of resources.

For years, the conventional wisdom on devolution from Ottawa's perspective was that Yukoners were not ready to take on the task of managing our natural resources. We did not have the know-how or the administrative regime, regulations, legislation or experienced people to do the job right. With the introduction of the Yukon Oil and Gas Act, we are saying to Ottawa and to the people of the Yukon that we are ready. We can do the job right.

We have consulted with the oil and gas industries and stakeholders in the Yukon to ensure that the regime is fair and competitive, both nationally and internationally. We have invited First Nations to participate in the development of the regime and ensure its compatibility with land claim agreements. We are drafting regulations to manage the disposition of rights, exploration, drilling, production and transmission. We have brought experienced personnel into government to manage our responsibilities in the oil and gas sector.

With the introduction of this legislation, we are sending a signal to Ottawa that it is time for the federal government to do its part. It is time for it to meet its commitments under the Northern Accord and to enact legislation that will complete the transfer of authority for oil and gas resources to the Yukon.

Members of this Legislature are aware that First Nations have expressed concerns about the transfer. We will continue to encourage First Nations to participate in the development of an oil and gas regime that benefits all Yukoners, that respects aboriginal rights, that is consistent with land claim agreements, and that provides opportunities for First Nations to participate in the management and regulation of the oil and gas sector.

We will also continue our work with industry and the people of the Yukon to prepare for the management of oil and gas resources in future. With the introduction of the Yukon Oil and Gas Act, we are sending a message to industry that our regime is competitive and will provide a stable and fair regulatory environment. It will also ensure continuity by grandfathering the oil and gas rights companies currently hold in the Yukon.

We also want Yukoners to know that the regime will ensure local control over environmental protection, safety, and the conservation of oil and gas resources. In addition, it will ensure that development procedures produce social and economic benefits for Yukon communities. These benefits include economic diversification, employment opportunities, business opportunities, and a new source of revenue for government through resource royalties and the sale of oil and gas rights.

I commend the Yukon Oil and Gas Act to all Members of the Legislature. It is a good piece of work and an important milestone on our journey toward increased self-sufficiency. The oil and gas industry has so much potential to provide opportunities and prosperity for Yukoners. With only one gas field in production so far, Yukon gas sales exceeded 345 million cubic metres last year. That is more than the total amount of refined petroleum products consumed in the Yukon during the same year.

With the Yukon Oil and Gas Act in place, we anticipate rapid growth in the oil and gas sector, which can only be good news for the Yukon.

Mr. McDonald: I have not had a chance to read through the Yukon Oil and Gas Act, so I really cannot speak to the principles of the bill, let alone the particulars.

The transfer of resource responsibilities from the federal government to the Yukon has long been an objective of all governments within the Yukon Territory. I would say it is a reasonable proposition that Yukoners do believe we should be managing our own natural resources ourselves.

The Minister acknowledges that First Nations have expressed concern about the transfer of oil and gas, as well as of other resources, to the Yukon government. It is our position that it is essential that these concerns be resolved so the promise of the land claims agreement can be realized.

Many of the concerns relate to the fact that the public government is actively pursuing resource transfers before land selections for various First Nations have taken place. I would be interested in hearing from the Minister about how this issue is dealt with in the legislation.

While the assumption of control by the Yukon government and First Nations over natural resources is a laudable objective, we should be careful not to overstate the impact of this transfer. We should not unreasonably raise public expectations about the economic return of even an enhanced industry.

For example, if production revenues from oil and gas were to increase 10 times from current year levels, the total increased revenue to the Yukon government would amount to less than 10 percent of the federal transfer payment to the Yukon.

We look forward to having more substance from the government about what the legislation is all about and how the government has solved, or intends to solve, outstanding concerns.

Mr. Cable: I would have to say that the Minister is right on two counts. He says our future economic prosperity does indeed depend on our stewardship and the responsible development of our natural resources, and I agree with that.

He is also right when he says the First Nations have expressed concerns about the transfer. In my view, the transfer of the resources should be driven as much by the need to involve all Yukoners and all levels of government as by the economic imperatives, whatever they are. The tabling of the Yukon Oil and Gas Act is, in a sense, just a second step in the transfer. The next and most important step is the involvement of all Yukoners and all Yukoners' governments.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I thank the Members for their comments. The idea of tabling the legislation is so that everyone has an opportunity to go over it and direct comments back to us. The federal government, I understand, will be tabling its legislation to allow us to enact our legislation in the next sitting of the Legislature, and I believe that is going to happen some time next week. That was our latest understanding.

We are concerned that First Nations have not yet participated. We continue to try to involve them. We have money, as the federal government has money, to enable them to participate, and I encourage First Nations to participate in this Yukon resource.

Speaker: This then brings us to the Question Period.

QUESTION PERIOD

Question re: Oil and gas devolution

Mr. McDonald: I have some questions, following up on the ministerial statements regarding the transfer of oil and gas to the Yukon territory and the proposed passage of legislation by both Yukon and the federal government to cement the transfer arrangement.

The Minister has made it clear in his ministerial statement and in his reply that First Nations people have expressed some concerns about the transfer, and the federal government, for its part, has delayed transfer deadlines, not only of oil and gas, but also of forestry on a number of occasions in order to respond to those concerns.

Can I ask the Minister, apart from the fact that the federal government is interested in tabling the legislation in federal Parliament shortly, what precisely is the federal government's position on the transfer of oil and gas to the Yukon and when does it expect that the transfer will actually take place?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I have probably dealt with the federal Minister in greater detail on this than the Minister responsible for Economic Development.

Our understanding is that the federal government will be introducing its legislation next week and will be dealt with before the House adjourns for the summer. We will not be bringing ours back to this Legislature until the fall sitting. We have agreed with the federal government and have given assurances to First Nations that we will not proclaim our legislation before April 1, 1997, giving us time to finalize land claims agreements.

Mr. McDonald: The First Nations' concerns, as I understand it, in part revolve around the issue of whether or not they can seek land selections prior to the issuance of new oil and gas rights. Can the Minister tell us that that has been resolved in the legislation or is he saying, effectively, that all land selections will be completed prior to the time the legislation is enacted and proclaimed?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: As the Member is aware, there is an agreement by all three parties to finalize the outstanding land claims agreements by February 14, 1997. The Minister and his staff met several times with First Nations on the oil and gas legislation to try to expedite it so that he could live up the commitments that he made to the Yukon prior to the first four land claims agreements being put through the House of Commons. As a result of the last meeting I had with the Minister, I was quite prepared to give him our assurances that we would not proclaim the legislation before April 1, 1997. We hope that all land claims will be finalized by that time.

Mr. McDonald: Let me put the Minister's feet to the fire, so to speak, on this one question and ask whether or not he is prepared to proceed with the passage and proclamation of this legislation before all land selections are completed.

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: It is our intention to debate that legislation during the next sitting of the Legislature but not to proclaim it until April 1. It would not be in anyone's best interest for us to try to proceed with the legislation until we can finalize the land claims. We have all renewed our commitment to finalize the land claims by February 14, 1997. We are working toward that date. We hope that we can meet that date.

Question re: Oil and gas devolution

Mr. McDonald: The Minister is effectively saying - and please ask him to correct me if I am wrong - that if land selections are not completed, the government will not be passing and proclaiming this act. The land selections have to be made before this act is passed and proclaimed. If I am wrong, I invite him to correct me.

The First Nations have expressed concern about the Government of the Yukon advertising oil and gas opportunities with the industry without discussing those initiatives with the First Nations affected. The First Nations affected are those on whose traditional lands there are oil and gas opportunities; for example, the Vuntut Gwitchin, the Na-cho Ny'ak Dun and the Kaska First Nations.

Can I ask the Minister whether or not the government has established a protocol with First Nations to ensure that any issuance of oil and gas rights on First Nations traditional territory, or any discussions with the oil and gas industry about opportunities on First Nations traditional territory, will be discussed with First Nations prior to the consultations taking place?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: In reference to the Member's preamble about the proclamation of the legislation, it is our intention not to proclaim it until land claims are finalized. We expect all land claims to be finalized by February 14, 1997.

With respect to consultation with First Nations, of course we will consult with them, as we do with any development that goes forward in the Yukon. This is part of the new arrangement between different levels of government, and it is important and mandatory that we do consult with them.

Mr. McDonald: Along the same theme as First Nations consultations, have there been real consultations - not just offer of such - with First Nations on the development of this legislation? Given that the government has given notice that it is developing regulations, have there been actual face-to-face meetings with official representatives of First Nations on the development of those regulations?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: When we talk about actual consultations, I think the Minister answered it. No, because the First Nations have refused to participate. The door is wide open. We hope to be able to involve them. We are encouraging them to become involved, but we cannot force them to come to the table.

Mr. McDonald: That creates a bit of a dilemma for the government. I am interested to see how that will play out.

I would like to ask one further question. The ministerial statement makes it clear that this legislation will "ensure that development produces social and economic benefits for Yukon communities". How will that assurance be kept in law?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: In law, through the umbrella final agreement, we have to consult with First Nations. We have to allow First Nation participation. We are being kibitzed by the Member for Faro again.

That Member only needs to look to his neighbouring community of Ross River to see the major advances First Nations have made with the mining communities operating in the Yukon. The Ross River First Nation is much further ahead today than it was several years ago, when it comes to mining development in the Yukon.

We expect the same to happen with oil and gas.

Question re: Collective bargaining

Mr. Cable: I have some questions for the Government Leader on the restoration of collective bargaining.

It was apparent from the Tuesday night debate on the Public Service Commission budget that the Minister responsible for the public service had not been brought into the picture on the initiatives the Government Leader was taking with the union leaders in relation to the restoration of collective bargaining. He could not report on the substance of the conversations the Government Leader had over lunch with the union leaders so it appears he was not brought into the picture either before or after those luncheon meetings.

Could the Government Leader indicate why the Minister responsible for the Public Service Commission has not been brought into the picture on the Government Leader's initiatives with respect to the two unions?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I would refer the Member opposite to page 3075 of the Blues of April 16, 1996, where I answered the questions of the critic, the Member for Whitehorse South Centre, on my meeting with the two unions, and I laid it out quite clearly that they were purely exploratory talks. They were not negotiations or anything of the sort.

Mr. Cable: No, it indeed was not the question I was asking.

Yesterday, the Minister responsible for the Public Service Commission and the public service said that the Public Service Commission had not been engaged in any way in relation to the issue of the repeal of the Public Sector Compensation Restraint Act, 1994, yet the Government Leader is on record as saying - and he can himself refer back to Hansard - "we are exploring all options". If the Public Service Commission is not involved and the Minister responsible for the public service is not involved, just who is this "we" that is exploring all options?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: As I indicated to the Member earlier and as I also indicated in debate in answering questions on April 16, this was a purely exploratory meeting to see if there was any desire on the part of the unions to engage in talks prior to collective bargaining, so that we could do it in a better atmosphere. We have not been very successful. I did not get the feeling from the people I was meeting with at that meeting that they wanted to be involved in prenegotiation talks. As a result of that, Cabinet has not acted on the issue at all and it will not come up before the fall sitting of the Legislature.

Mr. Cable: The Government Leader is on record in relation to another issue that he will remember, when he said, "A deal, is a deal, is a deal."

Will the Government Leader assure this House that his efforts with the unions to date are genuine and he wants to restore collective bargaining, the collective bargaining deals and that the efforts the Government Leader made were not only electioneering fluff?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I hear kibitzing from the Member for Riverdale South, which does not surprise me.

In reply to the Member's question, my efforts are most certainly sincere, and the government would like to return to collective bargaining as soon as possible. Parameters need to be established, and I believe the Member is aware of them. When the government implemented the wage freeze, there was a desire to reduce payroll costs by about $10 million. At the present time, as of March 31 of this year, the government has only realized about $4 million in savings.

Question re: Habitat protection

Mr. Harding: The government made up for that with the $40 million in tax increases that have been levied upon Yukoners in the last four years.

I have a question for the Renewable Resources Minister on another subject.

I was listening to the radio this morning and I was quite shocked to hear a response from a representative of the Department of Renewable Resources about habitat protection. We have been asking this government to bring in habitat protection amendments; it says it is committed to doing so, and that it is working on it right now, and then it, through the civil service, slams spokespeople in the local media.

Why would the Minister instruct his department to take such a hostile approach toward a local group promoting habitat protection?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I have no idea what the Member is referring to. If the Member would give me some more details, I will certainly try to respond to his question.

Mr. Harding: The Yukon Conservation Society has been asking for habitat protection.

This morning on the radio, the spokesperson for the Department of Renewable Resources, Mr. Senger, said Jennifer Ellis is asking for too much, "If she includes the Aishihik area, which is 20,000 square miles, if she includes the Finlayson area, which is about 20,000 square miles, they have now locked up 40,000 square miles of the Yukon Territory, because Jennifer Ellis has said, 'Do not do this', or the Yukon Conversation Society has said, 'Do not do that'." Is that acceptable to a lot of people in the territory? Probably not."

Is it appropriate for the civil service to take such an aggressive public stance against respected, local advocacy groups, such as the Yukon Conservation Society, and actually name the executive director?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I was not aware of that newscast. I believe that our spokesperson should not have specifically named a person. I will certainly look at it.

The Member should be aware that the Yukon Conservation Society has taken some shots at the Department of Renewable Resources. It has made some statements in the paper that are not necessarily accurate and I expect that people in the department - I am making an assumption - were trying to fight back through the media the way the Conservation Society had attacked them.

Mr. Harding: The Yukon Conservation Society has not been taking shots at the department. It has a position and it has concerns. The Minister is responsible for the department. The department is supposed to be speaking only about government policy, not responding with some kind of vendetta against a local advocacy group.

On questions like this, where there are important issues with major political overtones, should the Minister not be responding instead of the civil service?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The media never contacted me on it at all. The gentleman who was named by the Member is the communications person for the Department of Renewable Resources. Undoubtedly, he was called by the media and he responded.

Question re: Public inquiry recommendations

Mr. McDonald:

I have a question for the Government Leader.

The public inquiry, initiated by the Cabinet, into allegations of conflict of interest, was given force by Order-in-Council 1996.44. The order-in-council makes reference to the use of the Conflict of Interest (Members and Ministers) Act and, particularly, one section to ensure that the target of the allegations is investigated. Another clause, which allows for the commissioner to review whether or not the clauses laid were unfounded, was not referenced in the order-in-council. I would like to ask the Minister why that was the case.

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I do not know. We are acting on advice from Justice. I can get an answer for the Member, but I do not have an answer on my feet.

Mr. McDonald: I would like to ask the Minister if he would, in following through with a public inquiry, as if it were under the Conflict of Interest (Members and Ministers) Act, be prepared to ensure that steps are taken - even if it means an amendment to the order-in-council - to ensure that the full intent of the act is applied. And further, whether or not the next section that was not identified, section 17(e), which reads, "Investigate charges made to it by a Member that there were no reasonable grounds for the complaint made by a Member under paragraph (d)" would apply, too?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: My understanding of the way the legislation was drafted is that that will be covered. I can confirm that for the Member very shortly. I believe that they will probably be listening in the Department of Justice, and I can confirm that. My understanding is that it was all covered in there - it covered the whole section, the whole act.

Mr. McDonald: I would ask the Minister to look very, very carefully because I can assure the Minister - he is, no doubt, aware - that I have looked through both the ministerial statement, the order-in-council and the Conflict of Interest (Members and Ministers) Act with great, great care. I understand that the realm of the investigation focuses only on the target of the allegations, but does not permit the commissioner to actually determine what action should be taken if the allegations were unfounded.

Can I ask the Government Leader whether or not he would be prepared - when the Conflict of Interest Commissioner's report is made known to the Executive Council and, under the Public Inquiries Act, made known to me - to call a special sitting of the Legislature to deal with the recommendations?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I do not have a problem with doing that, but I am not sure what the Member's reasons are for wanting a special sitting of the Legislature. This is being dealt with under the Public Inquiries Act. I am not sure if the recommendations are coming to the Legislature, but I do not believe they are. I will look into the matter.

Question re: Yukon Party convention

Mrs. Firth: At the Yukon Party convention last weekend, the Government Leader was trying to pump up the troops by pushing the Liberal Party out of the middle of the road and claiming the centre as his party's position.

He also made some comments about the next election. He first told people not to vote for independents, which was a great advertisement for us. He then made a comment I would like to ask a question about. The Government Leader said that the key to victory is controlling the information flow. Over the next few weeks and months, the government will be telling Yukoners what it has done in various ways.

What does the Government Leader mean by "controlling the information flow"?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: Perhaps the Member should have come to the convention. She might have learned something.

I do not think there is any specific meaning in those words, except that we will continue to consult with Yukoners, as we always have. We will continue to advise Yukoners of all the good things that this government has done in three and a half years in office. I would refer the Member to today's retail sales figures, which substantiates all the good things this government has done.

Mrs. Firth: I know what I would have learned. I would have learned that I am perfectly happy right where I am.

Obviously the printing of propaganda is what the Government Leader was referring to, like the big smear campaign that has been printed - 800 copies of some Taga Ku motion that will go out. Now the DocuTech - the crown jewel - will be the propaganda machine and work until the midnight hours printing leaflets.

What other plans does the Government Leader have to control this information flow?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: As I told the Member, things will be continuing as they always do. Governments are supposed to consult with Yukoners and let them know all the things it is doing, and we will continue to do that.

I do not know what more the Member wants, unless she wants to get in on the Yukon Party's election strategy, in which case I would invite her to come to a meeting.

Mrs. Firth: It would be interesting if there was a strategy.

Let us get this straight. This government will control the information flow. It has already made attempts to muzzle the media with talks of business and government advertising boycotts. We have the DocuTech, which will be running 24 hours a day producing booklets, leaflets and flyers. The government will probably drop them from airplanes for all Yukoners.

Can the Government Leader tell us what it will cost Yukon taxpayers for this propaganda blitz? How much of the $40 million tax grab he took from Yukoners' pockets - which should have been for food on the table - will be used for the propaganda blitz?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: The Member is the last Member who should be talking about integrity when it comes to money because she takes extra funding from the taxpayers and has for four years.

Question re: Certified nursing assistants, job security

Ms. Commodore: I hope that responses to my questions are a little bit better than the so-called Government Leader's responses. My questions are for the Minister responsible for Health and Social Services and regard certified nursing assistants.

Last night, I learned that the board of trustees of the Yukon Hospital Corporation has refused to meet with a delegation of certified nursing assistants and, as such, the board is in violation of the Hospital Act regulations to "provide for the participation of staff in decision making related to operational and planning matters in the hospital."

I would like to ask the Minister what actions he will take to ensure that the board of trustees is held accountable for ignoring these requests by the CNAs?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I just received a faxed letter before we came into the House. I have not even had a chance to look at it. I certainly want to look at the allegations that I understand are in the letter. My understanding was that the Hospital Corporation had had preliminary meetings with the CNAs and that there were going to be further meetings, but that is as far as my understanding goes at this time.

Ms. Commodore: I think the Minister has to, of course, bring himself up to date on what has been taking place. By disallowing the CNAs this opportunity, the board has refused to hear the concerns of the layoffs and to consider alternatives such as training and other staff allocation models and, by failing to meet with the CNAs, they appear to endorse these lay-offs.

We have just heard recently that they are talking about hiring two new registered nurses to work in the operating room. I would like to ask the Minister what actions he will take to ensure that the lay-off concerns of CNAs are addressed and that other alternatives, such as staff retraining are considered because that does not seem to be an option at this time?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I believe I have mentioned in debate that I will be meeting with the Hospital Corporation on May 1, 1996. The whole issue surrounding the CNAs is one of the things that I will be discussing with the corporation at that time.

Ms. Commodore: We have certainly given the Minister a lot of information to take to that meeting as a result of discussions in this House, and I mean that sincerely. CNAs are running out of options. They are not involved in the decision making to eliminate nine full-time CNAs. The board of trustees will not meet with them. They are now dependent on the Minister to act on their behalf, as head of the territory's health services, who possesses the authority pursuant to the Hospital Act. Considering this, will the Minister use the authority of the Hospital Act to appoint a person to investigate and report on the administrative and staffing aspects of the hospital?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: Before going to that extent, I certainly do want to meet with the Hospital Corporation. I want to make it clear, though - and I think I did so during budget debate - that I have been assured that there will be no layoffs. There will be a realigning of positions but I was assured by the Hospital Corporation that there would be no actual layoffs.

Question re: Golden Horn, land use plan

Ms. Moorcroft: I have a question for the Minister of Community and Transportation Services, following up on the petition I presented yesterday calling for a land use plan for the Golden Horn area.

Orderly development can occur when the community is involved in land use planning that allows for compatible land use. During budget debate, the Minister said he would check to see if there is money for a Gold Horn land use plan in the present year, since money has lapsed in previous budget years.

Will the Minister make a commitment to develop a land use plan for the Golden Horn area during the coming year?

Hon. Mr. Brewster: We are preparing the answers to the questions the Member asked and they will be delivered to the Member personally if the Legislature ends. I am not aware of what is in it at the present time.

Ms. Moorcroft: I am disappointed that that information could not have been found so that I could get an answer to my question from the Minister today. As I noted yesterday, I was delighted when the Minister agreed with me that he would like to avoid fiascos like M'Clintock Place in the future by developing community land use plans before approving controversial developments like RV parks.

Further to the requests in the petition, will the Minister agree to put aside the controversial application for rezoning for a 25-site mobile-home park in Golden Horn until after a land use plan is developed?

Hon. Mr. Brewster: I would have to see if it would be legal for me to do that. If I had done that for M'Clintock Bay, I would have been breaking the law and I am not prepared to break laws.

Ms. Moorcroft: Maybe I will have better luck if I ask the Minister a simple question of fact.

I would like to know the results of the survey of Golden Horn property owners. They were asked to vote on whether they support or oppose rezoning for a mobile-home park. What are the results, and what action will the Minister be recommending to Cabinet?

Hon. Mr. Brewster: The Bureau of Statistics has not, to my knowledge, turned the results of the survey over to us. When it comes in, we will act on it.

Speaker: The time for Question Period has now elapsed.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

Motion to extend sitting hours

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I move

THAT the time for the meeting of the Assembly for Thursday, April 25, 1996 shall be from 1:30 p.m. to 5:30 p.m. and from 6:30 p.m. to 10:30 p.m.;

THAT if the the Assembly has not then been adjourned for an extended period of time, the time for the meeting of the Assembly for Friday, April 26, 1996, shall be at 1:30 p.m.; and

THAT the Assembly shall adjourn on Friday, April 26, 1996 at such time as:

(1) all government bills before the House on Thursday, April 25, 1996, excepting Bill No. 1 and Bill No. 87, have been called for third reading in accordance with the provisions of Standing Order No. 59; and

(2) any other business which the Assembly has granted unanimous consent to be proceeded with has been called.

Speaker: It has been moved by the Hon. Government House Leader

THAT the time for the meeting of the Assembly for Thursday, April 25, 1996 shall be from 1:30 p.m. to 5:30 p.m. and from 6:30 p.m. to 10:30 p.m.;

THAT if the the Assembly has not then been adjourned for an extended period of time, the time for the meeting of the Assembly for Friday, April 26, 1996, shall be at 1:30 p.m.; and

THAT the Assembly shall adjourn on Friday, April 26, 1996 at such time as:

(1) all government bills before the House on Thursday, April 25, 1996, excepting Bill No. 1 and Bill No. 87, have been called for third reading in accordance with the provisions of Standing Order No. 59; and

(2) any other business which the Assembly has granted unanimous consent to be proceeded with has been called.

Motion agreed to

Request for unanimous consent to consider Second Reading of Bill No. 56 and to debate Motion No. 117 and Motion No. 118

Hon. Mr. Fisher: Pursuant to Standing Order 55(2), I would request the unanimous consent of the House to call Bill No. 56, entitled An Act to Amend the Conflict of Interest (Members and Ministers) Act, for second reading at this time.

Further, I would request unanimous consent to waive the provisions of Standing Order 27(1) with regard to notice in order to proceed with the debate on Motion No. 117 and Motion No. 118, which are on today's Order Paper.

Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?

All Hon. Members: Agreed.

Speaker: Unanimous consent has been granted.

Government bills.

GOVERNMENT BILLS

Bill No. 56: Second Reading

Clerk: Second reading, Bill No. 56, standing in the name of the Hon. Mr. Ostashek.

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I move that Bill No. 56, entitled An Act to Amend the Conflict of Interest (Members and Ministers) Act, be now read a second time.

Speaker: It has been moved by the Hon. Government Leader that Bill No. 56, entitled An Act to Amend the Conflict of Interest (Members and Ministers) Act, be now read a second time.

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: This is a very simple amendment to the act. It is to amend subsection 18(1) of the Conflict of Interest (Members and Ministers) Act by repealing the expression, "The commission shall consist of three members," and substituting for it the expression, "The commission shall consist of up to three members".

Mr. McDonald: For the record, I have indicated to the Government Leader already that I feel that this particular amendment is completely unnecessary; however, if it clarifies in the Government Leader's mind what I understood the act to always mean, we will clearly support it and have no problems with the amendment.

Mrs. Firth: I just want to indicate in second reading that I will be supporting the amendment, although I have to agree with some of the comments that were made by the previous speaker. However, if it will expedite the proclamation of the bill, so I am quite prepared to support it.

That brings me to my next comment in second reading. I wonder if the Government Leader could give us some indication in his final comments about when he anticipates proclaiming the legislation after we pass this amendment.

Speaker: If the Member now speaks he will close debate. Does any other Member wish to be heard?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I asked the very question that the Leader of the Official Opposition asked, that is, why does it have to be amended.

All of the legal advice that we have received advised that the act needs to be amended to make it very clear that we could operate the act with one or two commissioners. That is why we have brought the amendment forward and I am glad to have the support of the Members opposite to have this amendment passed and so the bill can be passed through the Legislature.

In reply to the Member for Riverdale South, we will be proclaiming this bill very shortly, possibly next week.

Second reading of Bill No. 56 agreed to

GOVERNMENT MOTIONS

Motion No. 117

Clerk: Motion No. 117, standing in the name of the Hon. Mr. Phillips.

Speaker: It is moved by the Hon. Minister of Justice

THAT the Yukon Legislative Assembly, pursuant to section 16 of the Human Rights Act, appoint Dr. Richard D'Aeth to be a member of the Yukon Human Rights Commission.

Hon. Mr. Phillips: Dr. D'Aeth will be filling the vacancy that was left by Jon Breen, who resigned on February 28, 1996. Dr. D'Aeth has many excellent qualifications, such as experience in program planning, managing and working with senior staff, and he has worked with First Nations and other various levels of government.

Dr. D'Aeth has a strong knowledge of general management, budget controls and personnel, a good background in building management teams, and has an extensive medical background. I am sure that Dr. D'Aeth will be a very valuable asset to the Human Rights Commission.

Motion No. 117 agreed to

Motion No. 118

Clerk: Motion No. 118, standing in the name of the Hon. Mr. Phillips.

Speaker: It is moved by the Minister of Justice

THAT the Yukon Legislative Assembly, pursuant to section 21 of the Human Rights Act, appoint Ms. Gail Edmunds and Mr. Timothy Vickery to the panel of adjudicators.

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I am bringing this motion forward to propose Gail Edmunds and Timothy Vickery as adjudicators for the Yukon Human Rights Commission Board. Ms. Edmunds will be filling the vacancy left by Cst. Steve McLeod, who resigned as a member of the board late last fall. Ms. Edmunds is self-employed and operates her own consulting business in Whitehorse. Her areas of specialization include evaluation, research, program development, specifically toward educational, psychology and child-care matters. Ms. Edmunds has extensive knowledge and experience in dealing with Yukon issues. In addition, she has been an active participant with the Yukon community and is presently a member of Yukon Learn.

Mr. Timothy Vickery is a part-time instructor in the academic studies at Yukon College. He resides in Haines Junction as the co-chair of the Haines Junction Community Justice Committee. He also has a good knowledge of mediation techniques and has studied philosophy and religion.

Both these individuals will be a great help to the board of adjudication, and I recommend them to all Members.

Motion No. 118 agreed to

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I move that the Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve into Committee of the Whole.

Speaker: It has been moved by the Hon. Government House Leader that the Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve into Committee of the Whole.

Motion agreed to

Speaker leaves the Chair

COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE

Chair: I will now call Committee of the Whole to order. We will take a brief recess at this time.

Recess

Chair: I will now call Committee of the Whole to order.

Bill No. 10 - First Appropriation Act, 1996-97 - continued

Department of Tourism - continued

On Capital Expenditures - continued

On Administration - continued

On General Administration Support - continued

On Visitor Reception Centre/Tourism Business Centre - Construction - continued

Mr. Sloan: I have just a couple of questions and I think I mentioned these to the Minister before.

I have heard some concerns voiced about some of the outside construction and some of the visuals involved with siding and things of that nature. Can the Minister give us a sense of what kinds of things are planned? Specifically, there seems to be different colours. Can he give us a sense about that and some of the other exterior detail?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I will just remind the Member that what he is looking at now is a building that is about one-quarter finished on the outside. There are second coats of paint and awnings to be added, sidewalks to be put in, trees to be planted, paving to be done, large posts with banners on them will go up along the road in front. I think there will be a bit of an amphitheatre in the corner behind the theatre - an outdoor place where people can sit and be entertained. There is quite a bit of work in the yard still to be done. Actually, when one looks at the building from the road, there will be a lot of difference between what it looks like now and what it will look like then. It is a building that is one-quarter to one-third finished on the outside.

Mr. Sloan: With regard to some of the interior spaces, in particular the public area, can the Minister give us a sense of what the interior space in the public area will look like? I tried to get a perspective from the model but it is a little difficult to look at a scale model. Will there be a sort of central desk where people will be greeted? What is the gist of it?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: If the Member wants, I could take him over to the building and show him the entrance. It is quite nice and the entranceway and atrium is probably about 95 percent complete and so is the office side.

The way the building is designed, one can enter the building from either side and can access either the business centre or the visitor centre from the centre of the building.

There will be signage in the main atrium. During the summer months, tourists will be drawn into the visitor centre where there is a reception desk. During the winter months there will not be full-time staff, but the centre will be open. The way the building is designed, secretarial staff and the staff in the business centre will be able to direct people into the visitor centre. We can utilize the staff at the front desk of the business centre to direct people into the visitor centre.

Mr. Sloan: I know, in terms of square footage, how much area is devoted to office space, but how much of the budget is actually geared toward the visitor reception and public space, and how much would be devoted to office space, in terms of overall cost?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I do not really know that. Of course, the budget remains the same and the staff will remain the same. Staff from the present visitor reception centre will move downtown and the staff from the offices on Hawkins Street are going to move to the new facility.

The department will realize savings in heating costs, because it will not be heating two buildings. There is now one building and one central heating system.

It might be difficult to break down the costs for the Member, especially since the building has not yet been in operation for a year. I do not know if we would be able to separate the cost of the two buildings, because I think they are heated from a central point and the power comes from a central point, so there would not be a breakdown of the two.

Mr. Sloan: Maybe I was not clear. I was looking at the percentage of the overall cost of construction. How much would have gone into, for example, the public space? There is a fair amount of money given to displays and that kind of thing in the budget. How much of the capital cost is for the public space as opposed to the office space?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: The building was not tendered that way. It was tendered as a whole package. I would have to go back to the architect and others to have them do a costing. It was tendered as a complete package. It was not broken down by one or the other.

Mr. Harding: When did the Minister become such a staunch proponent of public sector office space construction as opposed to having government employees housed in private sector space?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I do not know if the Member was listening, but I have mentioned in the House before that I wanted to give a high profile to the Department of Tourism, since it is the second largest industry in the territory. The profile that we are giving the Department of Tourism is completely and fully supported by the private sector, according to letters sent to me and to the Member opposite.

Mr. Harding: Is the Minister saying that the only way to give the Department of Tourism a high profile was to build a public sector, government-created office space?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: No.

Mr. Harding: What is he saying then?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I am saying exactly what I said in answer to the question before the last one.

Mr. Harding: I am asking the Minister to give us some rationalization behind that answer.

He said that he wanted to give the department a high profile. Because of that, I asked him the question about when he became such an avid proponent of public sector, government-purchased - with taxpayers' money - office space over private sector office space. In answer to that, he said that he wanted to give it a high profile, thus implying that he had to give it a high profile, and the only way he could do that was to buy, create or build office space with government money and to move people out of private sector office space. Therefore, I am asking him why he would feel that was the only way to give Tourism a high profile. Could he not have found some private sector office space to give it a high profile?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: We probably could have, but what we found is that we had an excellent location across the road, close to the Whitehorse waterfront that lent itself to the new visitor reception centre, and we saw the opportunity to combine both facilities, which would achieve a cost savings overall in the O&M costs. We believe this will save taxpayers money in the long run.

Mr. Harding: It is an interesting thesis from the Minister, given the comments that I have heard in the past about his condemnation of the previous government for even considering building office space. Now he has become a revisionist on that question. I will not belabour the point.

With regard to the letter that he referred to that I received from the Tourism Industry Association, I know precisely what the Minister did. He went to a TIA board meeting, he handed out Hansard, told one side of the story about precisely what our feelings were, made a lot of comments on which I got full reports, and TIA responded with a letter. I would think that TIA should talk to both sides before it responds with letters. It should not just listen to the Minister, because he does not always say what happened.

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I do not think that I have to come to the defence of the Tourism Industry Association. It knows full well that the Member who just spoke has been the Tourism critic for several years, yet he has never attended a tourism meeting or marketing council meeting. He continues to stand on his feet and make allegations in the House that have no basis in fact. I think that TIA knows where the Member for Faro is coming from. He comes with no knowledge of the tourism industry - no knowledge at all - which is unfortunate.

The Member likes to talk and hear himself talk. He likes to make these statements that are not accurate. I do not think I have to tell the tourism industry that. I am glad to hear the Member speaking out again on it, because every time he does, it reinforces his lack of knowledge with respect to tourism.

Mr. Harding: The Minister does not have to come to the defence of the Tourism Industry Association. He should come to his own defence, though, because he does need some help on that score. This is a Minister who was a major opponent of public sector-created office space. He is now a major proponent of public sector-created office space, and he built a $4 million Tourism office building downtown, right next to some local businesses.

I want to say that this Minister is dead wrong with his comments about interest in tourism. I think the people in my community and the Campbell region would certainly think differently about that. The people in the tourism industry may not agree with me that more focus should be on areas, such as the Campbell area, but I emphasize that area, in terms of my critic performance. I attended many meetings and briefings on tourism, and I also attended the tourism summit that Mr. Phillips organized. I just want to say that, given a reading of the four-year plan for tourism, the Minister has failed, on just about every count, to deliver on the promises he made to the electorate.

It is a good thing we have anniversaries coming - the 100th anniversary of the gold rush and the RCMP - otherwise tourism would not be in good shape at all, because the Minister has failed on waterfront development, which was a major commitment he made, and failed on many other aspects of his four-year plan, which I went over on a line-by-line basis. For the Minister to say that he has risen above any room for criticism is, I think, stretching it. I just want to say that I am thankful that the anniversaries have come because they have basically saved him from his failure to deliver on his election promises.

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I am going to save the Legislature a lot of time by not engaging in debate with the Member opposite, but I will just leave this after making this comment and that is that I will sit down with the Member at any time, any place, anywhere and debate tourism issues. I will put our four-year plan up and show the Member where he is wrong any place, any time he wants to, because I know what we have done in Tourism.

Some of the accusations he made the other day about the four-year plan and what he said we should be doing in the Department of Tourism with respect to telling people about the gold rush centennials is exactly what we are doing. He does not know that because he has not taken the time to learn it. It is easier just to speak out and make accusations without any background knowledge. That is the way that Member operates.

Mr. Harding: I have not travelled the continent of Europe, attending little tourism wine-and-cheese gatherings as has the Minister. I have not been the parade marshall down in Florida like the Minister. I am just an ignorant country boy, but I do know a little bit about tourism. I have not had the extensive travel budgets that the Minister has had, but we try. Some day, if I become Minister, I certainly will work very hard to promote the industry.

As for the tourism gun fight at the Okay Corral - any time, any place, anywhere - I do not think I want to take him up on that challenge. If he wants to debate tourism, let us debate tourism in here.

Mr. Sloan: I hope we can move on from our arm-wrestling match here.

I would like to move on to the construction of the tourism business centre. There are one or two questions that were given to me with regard to access to the visitor reception centre, and particularly with regard to public access to the building, when it is completed - mostly with regard to post-season use.

I had a couple of groups ask me what the arrangements would be with regard to that. Suppose a non-profit group wanted to give a performance of a small nature. What would be the structure for accessing that building, rather than going to the Arts Centre, which might be beyond their scope? In particular, this question came to me from some of the smaller arts groups.

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I do not think there has been a decision made on the use of the theatre as an actors' theatre. It was not designed for that. It has a very narrow stage. It is wide enough to put a lectern on it so someone could give talks, which could probably happen in the winter. There might be some convention or meeting use, where 100-plus people could sit in the theatre. However, there are other facilities in town for those types of things.

There has not been an arrangement made. It is something we could explore in the future, but it is not something that is in the plan right now.

Mr. Sloan: In this specific case, the question was asked about readings similar to what we have had here with National Book Week - perhaps performances by solo artists.

With regard to the building, what kind of an aesthetic theme, colour scheme or overall look is projected for the building? I understand the directions given to the architect were for a Klondike-type building. Is that correct?

What kind of theme will be continued in the interior? Will it be a Klondike-type theme?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: Initially, there was a discussion about the building looking similar in style to the new Family Violence Prevention Unit building. It went to a building planning committee and they changed the motif a little. Because we wanted primarily to make sure we had enough parking on the lot, they decided on a longer, narrower design and because it was near the waterfront the thought was that it would look similar to the waterfront buildings that were built at that time. So it is a longer, narrower construction, affording a lot of parking area. That is the rationale for the design.

The main thing is that there is no real theme inside. It will be a combination of First Nations themes. Visitors will be able to take a trip through the territory and find out what there is to see and do in the rest of the territory.

There will be a competition for artists to design various artwork for the outside of the building. The back wall has no windows in it, and the plan is for that wall to have four or five large murals painted on it. Competition details will be going out fairly soon to local artists. It will be themed and it is hoped that they will submit artwork for those walls. It will be there permanently and should be quite colourful.

The outside of the curved part of the theatre will have a large "Visitor Reception Centre" sign going around it that can be easily seen from the road. Of course, there will also be a lot of flowers and plants around the front of the building, so I think it will be quite attractive when it is complete.

Mr. Sloan: As a matter of fact, that is one of the questions that came to me - the profile of the building and why it was situated on the site as it is.

Does the Minister anticipate that the way the centre will be accessed will pose any problems in terms of how people will turn off the street into it? Are there any plans to realign or reconfigure that particular access?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I am not aware of any plans. During the reconstruction of the South Access Road, I know the government had fairly extensive consultations with the City of Whitehorse about the South Access Road. The city feels confident that there will be no problem with signage or with directing people to the visitor reception centre. There will be signage along the South Access Road and along Fourth Avenue to direct people to the visitor reception centre.

The city feels that there will be no problem with traffic. Some changes may have to be made, but I am not aware of what the changes will be.

Visitor Reception Centre/Tourism Business Centre - Construction in the amount of $600,000 agreed to

On Visitor Reception Centre/Tourism Business Centre - Landscaping

Mr. Sloan: Could the Minister give us a sense of what would be involved with this expenditure?

Some people have asked me if there is a small park or some public space planned where people can go to eat their lunch and look at the river. Could the Minister give us a sense of what the site will look like? I know there is a lot of wood over there. Are there going to be boardwalks?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: The Member is right. All of the pressure-treated wood is for wooden boardwalks, tree planters and those types of things. There will be a central plaza between the trees leading toward the river and coming from the sidewalk to the front of the building. When people approach the building, either from the north or south, it will lead people into a row of trees with the focus being to draw people down to the river and the waterfront.

There is a conceptual drawing for viewing here in this building at the top of the stairs, which the Member could look at. The present design is similar to that drawing. I asked for landscaping plans, but all that it has is circles, squares, bushes and trees on it, and I do not think it resembles what it will eventually look like. I think the boardwalks will be quite attractive.

Mr. Sloan: Are there plans to eliminate the employee parking lot on the river as part of the overall theme?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: Not in this fiscal year, but the idea was to have the building facing the river. But eventually the building, all the way down to the river, might be tied into the waterfront development, whenever it goes ahead.

Mr. Sloan: Does the line item clear?

Visitor Reception/Tourism Business Centre - Landscaping in the amount of $150,000 agreed to

On Interior and Exterior Works of Art

Mr. Sloan: I know we have to talk about art here, but I would like to note that the school in my riding was condemned for having $15,000 worth of art. This building will have $65,000 worth of art. I am assuming that most of this will be in the public space - on the exterior. We are not going to put lofty artworks in office space, are we? I am wondering about the price. Is this primarily for external murals?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: Yes, it is. It is the decorative part of the outside of the building. It is, after all, a Yukon visitor reception centre, and one of the many assets in the Yukon is our strong cultural community and our artists. This is an opportunity to showcase those artists to the many thousands of visitors who will come to the centre.

Mr. Sloan: Just by way of interest, I happened to see some designs for the Elijah Smith school. There was a striking exterior visual that was scotched. With our newfound interest in murals, I hope we could consider that at some point.

When was it anticipated that these murals would be contracted? Will they be done this season?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I do not believe they will be completed this year. They will not be done by fall, when the building is officially opened. It takes a bit of time for artists to put concepts together. I believe that the tender will be out in the next few weeks. Then the plan would be to install them before the next tourist season, next March or April.

Mr. Sloan: Will there be an attempt to depict the diversity of the territory? For example, will there be some that reflect the First Nations culture, some that depict the period in history, and that type of thing, or will it be one thematic approach? Could the Minister give me a sense of how it will be?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I can get the concept for the Member. One of the suggestions that was made was that it be yesterday, today and tomorrow in the Yukon, which would depict all that the Member talked about in four or five different large murals on the side. They may be wooden murals that stick out, or they may be flat, painted murals. I am not sure. It will be up to the artists when they submit their concepts.

Mr. McDonald: I am fascinated by this expenditure - not that I object to it. In fact I am in favour of this kind of expenditure from time to time when there are notable buildings that need to have some beautification, as long as they are done reasonably inexpensively and also attractively. I do note though that, as my friend from Whitehorse West has pointed out, when the Elijah Smith School had $15,000 worth of artwork slated for it, the Minister of Education of the day in the new Yukon Party government - I cannot remember who it was - indicated that this was, in his words, a waste of money. He felt that the government had to get this building - which I guess he presumed was a Taj Mahal, or some sort of facility that had runaway costs associated with it - under control. As my friend has pointed out, the government scotched the $15,000 worth of artwork as a result. An interesting footnote, of course, is that the one school that the government has built since then is more expensive on a per-square-metre basis than the Elijah Smith School, so I guess it is in its own class of Taj Mahal, by some people's standards. I can promise if there is any artwork there associated with that project, I will support it nevertheless, if it is reasonably done and reasonably priced, of course. This is an interesting turnaround, and I am glad to have been here to see it happen.

The selection of the artwork is always a big issue and I would like to ask the Minister what the procedure will be for selecting artwork and who will be involved? Will the government be adopting Friends of the Gallery as its selection committee? Will it be giving some independent selection committee of artists, which typically happens in the selection of artwork, or will this be essentially a Cabinet decision?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: My understanding at this time is that it will be a jury of artists' peers who will look at the various submissions.

Interior and Exterior Works of Art in the amount of $65,000 agreed to

On Resource Centre Information Database

Mr. Sloan: I want a clarification. Is this the interactive-type material? Can the Minister give us a sense of what this is?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: This is a computer for the industry to use in the resource centre. This is the one where the industry can go in and pull up all of the names of the bus companies and that kind of data that is on the computer. This is the actual computer for the resource centre.

Resource Centre Information Database in the amount of $10,000 agreed to

Administration in the amount of $925,000 agreed to

On Heritage

Chair: Is there any general debate?

Mr. Cable: I have some questions on the White Pass railway, which I assume comes under the heritage program, to some extent.

At the Yukon Party's convention last week, there was a resolution passed concerning the railway right-of-way. What is the Yukon Party government's intention with respect to that resolution? Are there going to be any moves to protect the right-of-way?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I know that the Member opposite realizes that we are fast, but we are not that fast. We have not put anything in place yet. The resolution just passed last week, but I am not sure how it will be carried out. I suppose that there will be some deliberations on that in the future.

Mr. Cable: It has been five whole days.

What department would actually administer it? Would it be the Minister's department or would it be the Department of Economic Development?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I do not think that has even been discussed yet. We have been in the House dealing with budgets, and I do not think anyone has had an opportunity to even sit down and talk about it.

Mr. Cable: I am sure the Minister is aware that a society has been struck in town, to preserve at least part of the railbed and set up a tourist train. What, if anything, is the government doing in relation to that society? Is it working with the society?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I guess we are, somewhat. I believe some of the members who presented the resolution were members of the society. They spoke to it very eloquently at the convention.

Mr. Cable: The society has been around for, I think, at least a year. Has the government talked about a financial commitment to the society, in relation to the preservation of the railbed - I think they were talking about going out to MacRae - and the preservation of the railway rolling stock?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: Not that I am aware of.

Mr. Cable: I think the Minister - probably correctly - has been talking about attractions throughout his tenure in the Tourism portfolio. Does the Minister see the restoration of the railway as being one of the most important attractions we could provide to tourists?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: Yes, I do. I think it would be a great attraction. In fact, if the Member were to pull out the old waterfront plan of the City of Whitehorse - when people made presentations to the plan - the Yukon Party's presentation included a railway that at least went to MacRae and back.

Mr. Cable: This government did, in fact, commit government money under the centennial anniversaries program. Is the government prepared to commit public money to the restoration of the railway?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I think that would be a matter for the government to discuss. However, it has not been discussed yet, so I would not want to commit to that at this time.

Mr. Cable: Could the Minister indicate to the House just what is intended by the society? What sort of projects is it proposing to the public and, I assume, to the Minister's department?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: The last I heard from the society is that they said the proposed project was on hold because White Pass did not want to separate that section of the railbed and sell it to anyone else. It wanted to sell the whole package. Other than the fact that some members of the society, who are also members of the Yukon Party, presented a resolution at the spring convention, no decision has been made and I am not aware of any renewed request being been made to us for anything in that regard.

Mr. Cable: Does the government intend to promote with White Pass the cutting up of the railbed so that we can facilitate the society's project?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: That has not been discussed at all.

Mr. Cable: What is the proposed cost of the project as presented by the Railway Society? Do we have a ballpark figure? Is it $1 million, $5 million or $10 million?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I do not know the proposed cost. I know White Pass took the position that it would not separate the railroad right-of-way, and I know that the cost to purchase the White Pass railway, which is evidently not going to happen for a year at least, would be quite significant - in the millions of dollars - but I cannot give the Member that figure right now.

Mr. Cable: This may come under marketing rather than heritage, but the Government Leader in the not-too-recent past indicated that he expected the tourism aspect of the railway to continue on to Carcross from wherever it turns around now. Is there any update on the intentions of White Pass to bring the tourist train to Carcross?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: My understanding is that it certainly will not happen this year, and I am not aware of any plans for it to happen next year. There have been some changes in the management of White Pass and I have not spoken to anybody on what its plans are for coming to Carcross.

On Historic Resources

On Yukon Historic Resources Centre

Mr. Sloan: Can the Minister give us an idea what that money is for?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: This is for the completion of the architectural plans and preparation of construction of the facility in 1997-98.

Yukon Historic Resources Centre in the amount of $150,000 agreed to

On Yukon Beringia Interpretive Centre

Hon. Mr. Phillips: This is for the completion of the exhibit plan, architectural plans for the facility, the implementation of the plans and the recruitment of a program exhibit coordinator for the facility operation. The position will coordinate public programming, temporary travelling exhibits, school programs, et cetera.

Mr. McDonald: When does the department intend to tender the construction portion of the interpretive centre?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I believe construction will begin in September 1996. Work will be carried out through the winter, with the opening, if everything goes right, in May 1997 for the tourist season.

Mr. McDonald: The Minister said the construction would start in September. Is he saying the tenders would be released in July or August?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: Yes, that is correct.

Mr. Sloan: The Minister ran through some things in his explanation. Could he back up a little bit to the item with regard to school programs and travelling exhibits? Could he repeat it for me, please?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: Part of this budget is for the recruitment of a program exhibit coordinator for the facility operation. This position will coordinate public programming, temporary programming, travelling exhibits, school programs, et cetera.

Mr. Sloan: Basically, the Minister is telling us that there will be some sort of tie-in with the education system beginning in September to create a sense of the centre doing some things and familiarizing schoolchildren with the Beringia Centre. Will there by travelling exhibits? Is the department working on something that could travel around the territory?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: We have some specimens now that we could put into exhibits. We will be building other exhibits that we will be able to travel with. The idea would be to travel around to various schools throughout the territory, making Yukon schoolchildren aware of the Beringia era in the Yukon and how important it was. It will be a whole new program with respect to the history of the Yukon.

Mr. Harding: I wonder if the Minister could clear something up for me. I have heard some very disturbing comments about the facility. Is there any truth to the rumour that this facility will be called "Dougie-world" once this is all said and done?

The Minister does not have a sense of humour today

What are the plans for landscaping for this facility? It has not been landscaped since this government took office four years ago.

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I would refer the Member to Hansard from last night. I answered that question then.

Mr. Harding: The Minister did not answer it very well last night. I wonder if the Minister has any more details today.

Hon. Mr. Phillips: If the Member had been here last night to listen to it or read it last night or this morning, he would know what I said. I said it all last night and the Member should get a copy of Hansard - I can send it over to him, as I have it here - perhaps he could read it.

Mr. Harding: I could not have read Hansard last night, and this morning I read the answer in Hansard. I did not think it was very good, so I just wondered if he had any more details today.

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I will take some time to look it up and read it to the Member, as he seems to have trouble reading.

Yukon Beringia Interpretive Centre in the amount of $2,400,000 agreed to

On Museums

On Museums Assistance

Mr. Sloan: Is this the kind of assistance that is primarily going to the MacBride Museum for a fire protection system?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: Yes, a portion will go to the MacBride Museum for a sprinkler system.

Mr. McDonald: Could the Minister give us a breakdown of this line item and all of the other line items?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: This is the annual application process museums use for equipment, research, planning, marketing, artifact collection and management, including registration and cataloguing. As the Member will recall, there is not an actual breakdown, because it comes in throughout the year. It is an item that is in the budget from year to year.

Mr. McDonald: I do recall this line item and I do recall the history behind it. Generally speaking, there are projects that are associated with the line item that I would like to know more about. The Minister seemed to know about the sprinkler system improvements for the MacBride Museum and I would like to know more about it, please.

Hon. Mr. Phillips: There is $150,000 that comes from small capital projects. They are for applications from museums. The rest of the money is allocated to the Yukon Transportation Museum for the erection of a building and flooring for $100,000, and the MacBride Museum sprinkler installation of $125,000.

Museums Assistance in the amount of $375,000 agreed to

On Exhibits Assistance

Hon. Mr. Phillips: These funds provide assistance to Yukon museums to enable them to develop and upgrade temporary, permanent and travelling exhibits. The fund provides for the implementation of the Yukon's museum policy and to enable our museums to provide better attractions for the public.

Again, these are various projects throughout the territory.

Mr. Sloan: One of the concerns that I have heard very frequently from the museum community is their lack of ability to access other sources of funding. In particular, they have made a number of representations over the years to groups such as Yukon Lottery Commission. Has the Minister had any discussions with the Minister of Community and Transportation Services about expanding or perhaps modifying the guidelines to include heritage and museums in the parameters of such things as the Yukon Recreation Advisory Council and Yukon Lottery Commission?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: There have certainly not been any detailed discussions about it. However, I know that it has been raised a couple of times.

The other thing that we have discussed with the museums this spring is joint marketing the passport program with the museums, and how they could market themselves in a more efficient way to raise more revenue by bringing more people into their museums by using various marketing techniques. I have not seen the results from the conference that took place, but I know the department is working with them on that.

Exhibits Assistance in the amount of $200,000 agreed to

On Artifact Inventory and Cataloguing

Hon. Mr. Phillips: The project involves the establishment and operation of a computer inventory featuring the uniform data base of catalogued artifact collections held by Yukon museums and the Government of the Yukon; the contribution agreements to community museums for artifact collection registration, cataloguing the move to small capital projects and increasing that amount from $130,000 to $150,000. There is now $12,500 for small contracts to undertake small projects for specific cataloguing registration at some of the smaller museums. The balance of the funds is for salary, materials, supplies and travel.

Artifact Inventory and Cataloguing in the amount of $85,000 agreed to

On Conservation and Security

Hon. Mr. Phillips: This is the same as the previous year. There is no change.

Mr. Sloan: One of the concerns that has emerged, particularly from the MacBride Museum, is the conservation of some of its outside exhibits that are exposed to the weather year-round despite their efforts to protect them. Has the Minister received any representation from the MacBride Museum about some kind of enclosure or weather protection for the exhibits? I am thinking in particular about some of the transportation-related exhibits that the museum has outside.

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I have heard that there have been discussions, but I do not know how far they have gone. I would have to check and let the Member know.

Conservation and Security in the amount of $40,000 agreed to

On Historic Sites

On Historic Sites Maintenance

Hon. Mr. Phillips: This is for preservation and maintenance of historic structures not identified in specific capital programs. The Yukon stock of historic properties is rapidly degenerating and requires attention if they are to survive through to the centennial years. Attention will be paid to the Yukon sawmill exterior painting and foundation, the Millen House foundation in Dawson and on the Yukon River sites, such as along the Thirty-mile and Forty-mile rivers for fire prevention clearing and stabilization.

Mr. Sloan: This is a fairly substantial increase. Is this just to make up for problems that have occurred recently or just from natural decay? Is that the rationale for them?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: It varies from year to year. The people who work in the department will do an inventory and see something that really needs to be done. Something might come to their attention this year that did not come to their attention last year that must be dealt with quickly. It changes from year to year.

Historic Sites Maintenance in the amount of $265,000 agreed to

On Historic Sites Inventory

Hon. Mr. Phillips: The funds are used to continue field documentation of unrecorded historic sites and to upgrade specific information as required for future designation and public education. Emphasis will be placed on supporting the anniversaries related to the discovery of gold and transportation in the gold rush.

Historic Sites Inventory in the amount of $80,000 agreed to

On Ft. Selkirk

Hon. Mr. Phillips: Again, this is the annual contribution agreement to the Selkirk First Nation to carry out preservation, stabilization, maintenance, fire suppression work and interpretive programs according to a workplan approved by the joint government management group. Pursuant to the site management plans, work will focus on interpretation through signage and tours, as well as the interior restorations rehabilitation. Increasing river traffic will demand increased maintenance and services.

Mr. Sloan: In the absence of my colleague from Mayo-Tatchun, I would like to ask a question. Has there been a substantial increase in river traffic to Fort Selkirk?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: There has been in the last few years, and it is expected this year. I can get back to the Member with some numbers. I think they record the numbers as much as possible at Fort Selkirk.

Mr. Sloan: With regard to that, I have a generalized question about historic sites. Has the increase in river traffic resulted in increased pilferage of historic artifacts? Is that a problem - people picking up souvenirs and things of that nature?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: It probably has. It has always been a problem. A lot of work has gone into collecting the artifacts and storing them, to make sure they will not be pilfered. From time to time, it still happens.

Ft. Selkirk in the amount of $200,000 agreed to

On Herschel Island - IFA

Herschel Island - IFA in the amount of $1.00 agreed to

On Historic Sites Planning

Hon. Mr. Phillips: Planning will focus on heritage sites identified in the final land claim agreements, such as Rampart House, Lapierre House, Dalton Post and Lansing Post, as well as a number of additional sites expected to be identified in upcoming final agreements.

Historic Sites Planning in the amount of $105,000 agreed to

On Canyon City Tramway

Hon. Mr. Phillips: Some work will continue this summer on the archaeological and interpretive programming at the level similar to 1995-96. We had many visitors come to that site last year. For Members' information, I would like to pass out a new brochure that has been produced on the Canyon City tramway and the site.

Canyon City Tramway in the amount of $50,000 agreed to

On Interpretation and Signage

Hon. Mr. Phillips: This was moved from industry services to heritage. There is ongoing development and maintenance, removal and replacement of point-of-interest pullouts and signs, according to the guidelines established in the interpretive signage strategy and applicable corridor interpretive plans. It includes the development of interpretive plans for the Campbell Highway, the Haines Highway and the Yukon River, and enhancement of the interpretation of historic signs, as well as interpretive signage for the Klondike River bridge road heritage trail.

Mr. Sloan: Can the Minister indicate what stage the Klondike River bridge road project is at? Is it completed or is it still undergoing improvements?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I stand to be corrected on this, but I understand that there will be installation of the signage this year.

Interpretation and Signage in the amount of $300,000 agreed to

On Archaeology

On Yukon Archaeology

Hon. Mr. Phillips: The $170,000 is for two staff positions, a summer student, travel, rentals, radio-carbon dating, materials, supplies, contracts and postage.

The funds include support to a planned joint project with the Village of Carmacks and Carmacks-Little Salmon First Nation as well as support to the Canyon City tramway historic site development project, which is the third year of a joint archaeological project with the Kwanlin Dun First Nation.

Cost-recovered project funds from other agencies such as Renewable Resources or Community and Transportation Services will continue to meet information requirements of development assessment, land use planning and land claims heritage subagreement requirements.

Yukon Archaeology in the amount of $170,000 agreed to

On Paleontology

Hon. Mr. Phillips: The $125,000 Yukon palaeontology budget is for a staff position plus summer student selective training enforcement program, travel, field transportation, rentals, contracts, materials, supplies, telephone, postage, laboratory and field equipment assets.

Cost-recovered project funds from other agencies such as Renewable Resources and Community and Transportation Services will contribute to continuing inventory and research in order to effectively meet information requirements of development assessment, land use planning and land claims. The project will develop a computerized database of palaeontological sites and collections for resource management and Yukon Beringia Interpretive Centre utilization.

Mr. Sloan: Could the Minister give us a sense of some of the areas where the palaeontologist will be working this summer - the palaeontological sites that will be accessed?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: The primary focus this summer of the palaeontologist will be on the Beringia Interpretive Centre development. He will be spending most of his time doing that, I believe.

Palaeontology in the amount of $125,000 agreed to

On Research

On Heritage Studies

Hon. Mr. Phillips: This represents costs associated with the publication of occasional papers in archaeology and a report on historic archaeology at Canyon City which, I believe, was just passed out. Also included are costs for the publication of a popular book on a selected archaeology/palaeontology topic, Herschel Island, and research and support of the anniversaries programs and projects and support of qualified research and publications proposed by Yukon communities, First Nations and historians.

Heritage Studies in the amount of $50,000 agreed to

Heritage in the amount of $4,595,000 agreed to

On Industry Services

Chair: Is there any general debate on this program?

Are we prepared to go line by line at this time?

On Industry and Regional Services

On Industry Research and Strategic Planning

Hon. Mr. Phillips: This represents the continued analysis of visitor exit survey data; complete product inventory data entry and other database enhancements for the resource centre and other client services; the upgrade of the resource centre workstations for client access to retrieve information; the update of the tourism plan for the Silver Trail region and to conduct a tourism-business economic survey with the Yukon Bureau of Statistics.

Industry Research and Strategic Planning in the amount of $90,000 agreed to

On Product and Resource Assessment

Hon. Mr. Phillips: This is based on consultation in 1995-96, with Wilderness Tourism Association of the Yukon support, to complete an industry review, including First Nation consultation, and prepare legislation for a wilderness tourism business licensing system - legislation in 1997, for implementation in 1998. Costs include research, consultation and drafting. It will also finalize the environmental evaluation of the Alsek pending regional and environmental review committee decisions and complete any reviews, research identified and evaluation gaps. It also represents consultation with the Yukon First Nations Tourism Association for the facilitation of an aboriginal tourism product assessment potential and development options.

Product and Resource Assessment in the amount of $40,000 agreed to

On Special Projects

On Federal/Territorial Contribution Agreement

Federal/Territorial Contribution Agreement in the amount of $1.00 agreed to

Industry Services in the amount of $130,000 agreed to

On Marketing

Chair: Is there any general debate on this program?

Are we prepared to go line by line at this time?

Chair: We will go line by line at this time.

On Visitor Reception Centres

On Low Frequency Radio Transmitters

Hon. Mr. Phillips: In response to concerns raised by communities, the department will increase the frequency of the Whitehorse and Dawson City FM radio transmitters by relocating them to a position that will provide a wider listening area.

Low Frequency Radio Transmitters in the amount of $25,000 agreed to

On Multi-media Equipment

Hon. Mr. Phillips: The department will purchase multi-media equipment for the new Yukon visitor reception centre. A number of high-technology interactive workstations will be purchased, including hardware and software, a development that is CD-ROM compatible, which can be used by visitors to learn more about the Yukon's tourism industry, communities, attractions and history. The program will also develop displays depicting the history of the Yukon, including cultural and heritage components and will continue to maintain an inventory of audio and visual equipment at six VRCs.

Mr. McDonald: How much of the multi-media equipment line is dedicated to the new Yukon visitor reception centre, and can the Minister give us a specific breakdown of what that is for?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: Of the $280,000, $250,000 is for the new Yukon visitor reception centre.

Mr. McDonald: What does the Minister mean by multi-media equipment? Does he mean film projectors or slide projectors? Does he mean screens? What does he mean?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I talked about this last night as well. These are a kind of interactive touch computer screens that, I believe, tourists can walk through and go into Silver Trail area, go all the way down the road, and find out what businesses and attractions are there. It will be fairly user-friendly, but fairly high tech, so that it can be updated in the future with new technology coming in. It will be a type of thing that the visitors can actually use.

Eventually, if they discover that they want to go into the Silver Trail area, they can pick out an operator in the area with which they want to do something, and have a card or sheet printed out with all the information about how one books, the phone number and so on. That way, they can plan their whole holiday from the visitor reception centre, if they wish.

Mr. McDonald: What equipment will be used to support the multi-media show that the Minister identified last night? He said that the show that is currently at the visitor reception centre will be transferred down to the visitor reception centre on the waterfront. Will that show come with all the equipment? Will there be no new equipment purchased for the purposes of the multi-media presentation?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: The film at the new visitor centre is a slide film. The new film being produced is a movie-type film. The equipment from the present visitor reception centre will be moved to the new visitor centre and we will also have a new type of projection equipment for videos and films.

In future, there may be changes in the films and some new films may be added, but we will be putting in a specialized film-type projection unit that will allow us to show the videos or films.

Mr. McDonald: So the slide show and all the equipment, including the screens, presently at the existing visitor reception centre, will be moved to the new visitor reception centre in its entirety. Is that correct?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I am not sure if the screen will move. I believe there is a new screen, because there is new projection technology now available. I believe there is a new screen being installed in the visitor reception centre downtown and that the screen at the present visitor reception centre will be used for the Beringia film.

Mr. McDonald: Last night the Minister indicated that the slide show was going to move down to the new visitor reception centre. Does the government have any obligation to use that slide show? Is that the reason it is being used, or is it because it likes the slide show and prefers it to other slide shows?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I could not tell the Member if there is an obligation to use the slide show or not. It is a good slide show and it talks about gold rush history, which is important. We will use that slide show for now, but we will always be looking for new kinds of shows. In future, I could see a show about First Nations or some other kinds of shows.

One of the things we are producing now is a lure piece to direct people to the rest of the Yukon. That slide show is really a gold rush slide show and focuses on Parks Canada parks in the Yukon, although it talks about the Klondike Gold Rush, which is also important.

We want to create a film that gives visitors a taste of other jurisdictions in the Yukon and perhaps encourages them to travel to those areas.

Mr. McDonald: I understand that there was a multi-media show at the Arts Centre last year, called The Yukon Experience. I believe the Minister may have attended that show.

Is that the kind of show that the government might entertain renting or using at some point in the future, or is the government going to be producing all of its own material and developing its own programs?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: My understanding is we have most of the footage now; it just has to be assembled. We will be using what we have and assembling it.

Mr. McDonald: I realize we are getting a little ahead of ourselves, because there is another item talking about the production and distribution of films and audio-visual shows later on. We may as well deal with it now, because it is basically the same subject.

The Minister is saying that, when it comes to multi-media slide shows, the department does not intend to use anything that may currently exist to either rent or use from Yukon sources. Is that correct?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I do not know that we would never use it, but the Member has to appreciate that, with these types of multi-media productions, the type of show the Member talked about - The Yukon Experience - may not be compatible with the equipment we have. There is quite a setup involved with this equipment. It is quite technical to set it up, get the timing, have the projectors at the right angle, and the whole works.

Whatever we do will have to be compatible with the equipment we have, so that we can project it in a way that will be impressive to the visitors.

Mr. McDonald: Obviously the goal is to impress the visitors.

I wanted to explore what the Minister intended to do with respect to encouraging the local production of slide shows and films, as well as encouraging the use of already existing slide shows and films, which might make it more cost effective to provide a variety in the visitor reception centre.

The Minister indicated last night that the government wished to produce a 15- to 20-minute film, possibly with footage already shot by the German film crew. He indicated that that would ultimately be something the visitor reception centre would show to visitors.

Can the Minister tell us how much this particular project will cost, and how much of this budget will be dedicated to it?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: My understanding is that it is about $250,000, including equipment. It includes the high-tech screen and projection equipment. I would also point out to the Member that even the technology that we have in the visitors reception centre on the hill is now considered to be almost obsolete and difficult to get parts for. This stuff changes really quickly. The new technology is out on CD-ROM and other means. It is rapidly changing. We are hoping to put in a new system that will adapt to anything that we will do in the future. That is why we are going to this other process. We could not buy the equipment that we need now to run that old show up the hill, because a lot of it is not available. We would have to move the equipment as well. That is why we are moving it.

Mr. McDonald: The project that is going to involve film production is going to include money for the projection equipment itself. How much is going to be dedicated to the production, and how much is going to be dedicated to the equipment?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I would have to get back to the Member with that. I do not have that figure with me.

Mr. McDonald: I would like a very specific breakdown, if the Minister can provide it. I am interested in the specifics - the equipment and the proposed production costs themselves. The Minister indicated that there is a lot of free film footage and that the government would be interested in seeing that developed into a 20-minute film. How is that going to work? Who is going to be involved? Is this going to be tendered locally, or is it going to be given to outside firms? What is the government's plan?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: That kind of work will be done through our advertising agency, BBDO. I can get back to the Member with the details of how that will be carried out.

Mr. McDonald: The Minister is going to provide that information. Can he also provide the information about what the time lines for tendering are expected to be and about the specific plans. I am interested in not just when it will be tendered but in whether or not the government is seriously intending to tender it locally. I would be interested in knowing any other information that the Minister could provide. Will he do that?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: Yes, I will do that.

Multi-media Equipment in the amount of $280,000 agreed to

On VRC Capital Maintenance

Hon. Mr. Phillips: This project entails the upgrading the heating and septic systems, deck repairs, a survey of the parking lot at the Carcross VRC, upgrading the roof at the Watson Lake VRC, miscellaneous repairs including replacing the blinds and flooring of the Dawson City VRC.

VRC Capital Maintenance in the amount of $61,000 agreed to

On Travel Equipment, Displays and Productions

On Purchase and Maintenance of Displays

Hon. Mr. Phillips: These are the pop-up displays that we purchase from time to time.

Purchase and Maintenance of Displays in the amount of $15,000 agreed to

On Production, Distribution and Versioning of Vignettes

Hon. Mr. Phillips: This is just to update the vignettes from existing material to use as fillers for TV networks and public broadcasting facilities in Canada, the U.S. and Europe.

Production, Distribution and Versioning of Vignettes in the amount of $35,000 agreed to

On Production, Distribution and Versioning of Films and Audio-Visual Shows

Hon. Mr. Phillips: We just finished talking about that. This will allow us to produce a new film for the Whitehorse VRC, which will be video and CD-ROM compatible for use in other VRCs and in the marketplace.

Production, Distribution and Versioning of Films and Audio-Visual Shows in the amount of $280,000 agreed to

Marketing in the amount of $696,000 agreed to

On Arts

Chair: Is there any general debate on arts program? We will go line by line at this time.

On Visual Arts

On Visual Arts Acquisition

Hon. Mr. Phillips: This is a contribution to Friends of the Gallery to assist in the acquisition of arts for the Yukon Permanent Art Collection.

Visual Arts Acquisition in the amount of $8,000 agreed to

On Arts Acquisition Endowment Fund

Arts Acquisition Endowment Fund in the amount of $1.00 agreed to

On Traditional Native Art Acquisition

Hon. Mr. Phillips: In consultation with First Nations, funds will be used to re-acquire works of art of historical or traditional First Nation significance held in private collections.

Mr. Sloan: Will these be entering into the government's permanent collection? Is that the intent?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I believe that is the intent.

Traditional Native Art Acquisition in the amount of $8,000 agreed to

On Facility Development

On Living Cultural Centre

Mr. McDonald: Why is the government listing this as $1.00? What is the point? Do they expect some money from somebody at some point to actually do something?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: As I explained last night, there has been very little activity on this initiative and we wanted to maintain the line item pending discussions with First Nations.

Living Cultural Centre in the amount of $1.00 agreed to

Arts in the amount of $16,000 agreed to

Capital Expenditures for the Department of Tourism in the amount of $6,362,000 agreed to

Department of Tourism agreed to

Women's Directorate

Hon. Mr. Phillips: The 1996-97 operation and maintenance budget for the Women's Directorate represents a total of $406,000 to enable the Yukon government to achieve its commitment to the economic, legal and social equality of women in the Yukon through policy development and review, program coordination, consultation and public education. The operation and maintenance expenditures of the Women's Directorate fall under one program heading, policy and program development. The allotments are as follows:

Personnel, $245,000; this reflects 3.8 full-year equivalent positions - the director, the office administrator, a policy analyst and a .8 communications coordinator position. Although the directorate operates with a small contingent of indeterminate staff, it provides training opportunities for women whenever possible. For the past two years, the directorate has provided on-job practicum training to women through the college skills training program. This year the directorate will also offer practicum experience to a student in the Yukon College bachelor of social work program.

As in previous years, the directorate plans to hire a summer student.

Under other expenditures, $134,000 reflects the funding for the directorate to carry out its mandate. In the area of policy and program development, the directorate continues to review policy, legislation and programs to address concerns identified by Yukon women. It continues to network with women's groups in the communities. The directorate's focuses in the area of public policy over the next year will be on the inclusion of gender-based analysis in all government policy and planning. Gender-based analysis identifies how public policies differentially affect women and men. In some cases, gender issues may be significant to the policy and play a determining role. In other cases, they may be less significant or they may not be obvious in the first stage of analysis. They may emerge later. Therefore it is crucial that gender questions be raised throughout the analytical process.

A gender-based approach had been called for in the 1995 Commonwealth plan of action on gender and development, and the United Nations platform for action plan that came out of the women's conference in Beijing and Canada's federal plan for gender equality.

The gender-based approach is currently being applied to all government policy work in British Columbia, Australia and New Zealand. The Scandinavian countries and the European union are also moving toward a consistent application of this approach.

The director is working with Yukon College and the Public Service Commission to develop training workshops to encourage women to move into leadership and decision-making roles.

The Yukon Advisory Council on Women's Issues has successfully completed its first year of operation. At present, the government is soliciting nominations for consideration for members whose terms have ended. In fact, I will be taking the names to Cabinet tomorrow morning of the three individuals for appointment.

As with the previous membership, I will ensure that the appointments continue to reflect balanced representation. Since the first meeting in February 1995, the council has held four meetings, with a number of presentations from feminist organizations, government, non-government organizations, and groups on issues of concern to Yukon women.

Funding of $18,000 has been allocated again this year to ensure the council has sufficient funds to hold quarterly meetings and to send a representative to one national meeting. In the fall of 1996, the council intends to hold a symposium on women and aging. Funding for this event and coordination services will be provided for the council by the directorate.

In response to concerns raised by young women in the A Cappella North report, the directorate will continue to focus energies on initiatives and projects that promote equality for young women in our society. The directorate continues to work with the Department of Education to ensure a safe and equitable learning environment for all Yukon students, and is actively involved in the implementation of the gender-equity policy for public schools, which will be introduced into Yukon schools in the fall of 1996.

In response to requests from the Minister of Education last year, the directorate has recently completed an audit of a sample of curriculum materials used in Yukon schools for gender inclusion. The directorate has been very involved in an interagency group, the Yukon Equity Project, over the last year and continues to support the efforts of this group. It successfully completed a gender-equity retreat in the fall of 1995.

The project consists of two phases. Phase 1 is a training session for retreat facilitators and phase 2 is a gender-equality equity retreat for youth.

The first three days of the retreat involve 30 young women with eight female facilitators at two locations, Lake Labarge and the MacIntosh Lodge.

There were 10 young men at the Arctic Institute with five male facilitators. On the fourth day, all of the groups came together at Lake Labarge to discuss what they had learned.

Since the four-day retreat, many of the students who met and shared an interest in equity issues have come together in their schools to maintain the interest and momentum that the youth equity retreat sparked.

The Youth Equity Project sharing committee, of which the director is a member, continues to meet and discuss the issues of gender equity pertaining to youth. As a committee comprised of both government and non-government organizations, it serves the community well.

During the 1993 territorial-wide survey of Yukon women's concerns and priorities and, again in 1995, the A Cappella North survey of teenage girls in the Yukon, women throughout the territory have expressed grave concerns about violence.

The Women's Directorate continues to work closely with other government departments, community groups and organizations to implement the government's multi-faceted public awareness strategy to end violence against women and children.

Over the past two years, the Women's Directorate strategy has focused on the wellness and empowerment of youth to create healthy attitudes and relationships in reducing women's vulnerability to violence.

The strategies included radio advertisements, print advertisements, posters, activity-based workshops for women, children, youth and the general public.

A series of lunch hour brown-bag-it sessions have provided information about various topics of violence prevention and have been very well attended.

New Beginnings is a bi-yearly community newsletter compiled and produced by the directorate, which describes community-based action to end violence.

The month of May is Sexual Assault Prevention Month. Activities are dedicated to create awareness and prevention of sexual assault coordinated by the Women's Directorate.

For the first time this year, the month of November will be designated as Wife Assault Prevention Month. The director has encouraged school-based violence prevention programs that are now being initiated in many Yukon schools. The director continues to provide school-based workshops on topics such as goal-setting for teens, parenting, building self-esteem, creating healthier relationships, suicide prevention, self-defence and participatory theatre for teens to address issues of violence.

The directorate participates in the Department of Education's task force to promote safer schools and a coordinating committee on family violence, an inter-agency committee that promotes communication and shared resources in Whitehorse.

Over the past year, the directorate has co-chaired a federal/provincial working group on violence against women. In this role, the directorate has been successful in soliciting $20,000 from the federal government.

There is $10,000 to assist in bringing communications and information officers from every jurisdiction in Canada to discuss the theme of empowerment prevention of violence and models of evaluation of policy programs. There is also $10,000 to compile and produce a communications tool for jurisdictions to share resources, with community groups and organizations.

The directorate is responsible for administering this contract, and the final product will be available for distribution in early June 1996.

Over the next year, the directorate will continue its role as co-chair of this federal/provincial/territorial working group. Due to the increasing demands on personnel and resources, the directorate has increased its half-time communications coordinator position to a .8 position. By having a position to concentrate on public education, the directorate can continue to enhance the important work it has begun, through more school-based workshops, role modelling, violence prevention activities and workshops that empower women and encourage healthy relationships. The sum of $46,000 has been allocated in the area of violence prevention.

In addition, the directorate will again sponsor an awards banquet in October, to celebrate Yukon women's contribution to Yukon society, for which $5,000 has been set aside for this purpose.

In the category of transfer payments, a total of $22,000 has been allocated. Of this amount, a grant of $5,000 will be provided to the Victoria Faulkner Women's Centre to assist it in its operations. The directorate will provide some funding for the youth group Act Out Theatre to develop a play based on gender issues. In addition, the directorate will continue to provide support to the Yukon Equity Project and its future efforts.

This budget has an additional $5,000 allocated to the Victoria Faulkner Women's Centre to enter into a contribution agreement to provide forums for Yukon women to discuss issues of concern. An additional $5,000 is allocated to the Victoria Faulkner Women's Centre under contract dollars to be provided on a project-by-project basis.

In the area of family violence prevention, $6,000 has been allocated to community groups and organizations to carry out public awareness. In the past, these funds have primarily been used by rural communities for healing conferences or workshops. Over the past year, the directorate was part of an inter-agency committee to assess women's health needs and the feasibility of a wellness centre. Funding of $28,000 for phase 1 of this project was solicited from health promotion, Health Canada.

This year, as a follow-up to that project, health promotion has provided funding for a half-time women's health worker through Yukon College's public health and safety branch. The directorate has been asked to participate on a steering committee to direct the work of the women's health worker.

The directorate's capital budget consists of one item: office furniture, equipment and systems, totalling $8,000. These funds are allocated to replace an obsolete computer and to cover costs of developing and maintaining computer systems in the directorate, such as the financial information resource management system - FIRM. Because of its role as a central agency to other government departments and non-government groups and organizations, and its small contingent of personnel, it is crucial that the directorate keep up to date with computer technology.

There are a myriad of issues that affect women. Having access to up-to-date information through systems such as FIRM - the financial information resource management system - and Internet is of key importance. This concludes a breakdown of the Women's Directorate 1996-97 budget. I am prepared to take questions.

Ms. Moorcroft: I would like to thank the Women's Directorate for the information it provided to us in the technical briefing on this department. There are four line items in the Women's Directorate. We have very complete information about what its plans are for the next year with the $414,000 that is being sought for it.

I have concerns about the Yukon Party government because it has not consulted with Yukon women nor demonstrated any understanding of women's concerns and priorities.

This government has left the women's community feeling excluded from any decision making. The government has alienated women by its many actions, which show lack of respect for women and children. I have grave concerns about reports of the way government Ministers speak privately about women, including women Members of this House, which shows a lack of respect.

The government broke its promise to secure a mortgage guarantee through the Yukon Housing Corporation for the Victoria Faulkner Women's Centre. I presented a petition in this House that showed very strong community support for a mortgage guarantee for the women's centre, but I do not expect that we will see that from this government.

The government threatened to close Kaushee's Place women's shelter and move it to a group home in Riverdale. This was done without consultation with the community or women's group. The government has also reduced funding for women's shelters in the Yukon.

The former Minister suggested putting pregnant women in jail as a way of preventing fetal alcohol syndrome and fetal alcohol effects. That is hardly a way of supporting women making healthy choices in their lives.

There was a representative from the Yukon Status of Women Council on the Yukon Council on the Economy and the Environment when this government took office. The government no longer has that position and, despite protests and representation, it has made no attempt to appoint a member to the Yukon Council on the Economy and the Environment from the Yukon Status of Women Council.

We received a legislative return yesterday that showed that there are fewer women in management positions in the Government of Yukon. I think the government should be trying to increase the numbers of women in management, and particularly, of women as principals and in administrative roles in Yukon schools to help with the implementation of programs to reduce harassment and violence in the schools.

The government also failed to use the amendments to the Maintenance and Custody Orders Enforcement Act to refuse motor vehicle service to parents who do not pay child support. It seems that parking tickets have been taken more seriously than child support payments when we look at the implementation of the penalties.

During the Department of Justice debate, I asked the Minister a number of questions about the maintenance enforcement program and about the number of parents who intermittently pay child support, as opposed to the never-pays, for whom they are considering some motor vehicle sanctions.

I would like to ask the Minister responsible for the Women's Directorate, who is also responsible for Justice, since this is an issue that affects the security of the lives of women and children in the territory, whether he can, before we leave this House, provide answers to the questions I asked on the maintenance enforcement program.

Hon. Mr. Phillips: The Member has said an awful lot.

I am disappointed in the Member opposite because I have always considered that Member to be one who was extremely interested in women's issues. The reason I am disappointed is because we offered briefings to everyone with respect to the various departments, including the Women's Directorate. The Member opposite was offered three briefings and cancelled out on them; she missed the last briefing and then showed up just before we came into the House today and spent about three minutes gathering her information.

If the Member had taken more time to get up to speed on some of the issues, she would have discovered that we partner with all kinds of women's organizations in the Yukon. We partner with the Victoria Faulkner Women's Centre, Kaushee's Place, the Canadian Congress of Learning Opportunities for Women, Yukon Family Services, the Whitehorse Health Centre - the list really goes on and on and on of groups with whom we partner.

It is terribly inaccurate for the Member to say that women feel that the Women's Directorate and the Government of Yukon are not doing a very good job for women. I beg to differ.

I see the Member for Faro chatting in the background again, like a little squirrel.

The Member should be aware that we do a lot of work with these various groups and I am very proud of the efforts put forward by the people in the Women's Directorate and the Yukon Party with respect to dealing with women's issues.

It is almost as if I should not have bothered to give my opening remarks, because I laid out in those remarks some facts on things that are actually happening and working and things we are doing. Then the Member for Mount Lorne made it sound as if we were doing diddly-squat.

It is rather disappointing not to have at least acknowledged some of the positive things that are happening for women. There are a lot of positive things out there. I guess the Member wants to politicize it more than address the real issues. That is unfortunate for women whom she is rising to represent in this House when she speaks with respect to the Women's Directorate budget. It is unfortunate for her party, because if she had have taken more time to attend the briefings and had not cancelled out at the last minute - other Members took time to come to the briefings - then she would have had some time to find out exactly what we are doing with these groups. I take exception to some of the Member's comments.

I would also like to point out that the Member mentioned the reduction of women in management. Actually, what has happened is the percentage declined from 33.7 percent to 33.4 percent. It is less than one-half of a percentage point decline. CBC rounded it out so that it looked like one full percent, but when one looks at it, there has been no real change in actual number of women. The number of senior management positions increased from 104 to 108 and that is what changed the number, but it was not a change in actual number of women.

Women represent 30 percent of all management positions in government and 28-percent of senior management, and that is not good enough. It should and will be better, but this is certainly better than the federal Liberal government, which is somewhere around 18 percent. There is a strong representation in our government, and we are working on improving it.

I wanted to correct some of the statements the Member made with respect to the programs the Women's Directorate offers.

Ms. Moorcroft: I do not want to waste a lot of time responding to the Minister's accusations that I do not have an interest in the work of the Women's Directorate. I reviewed all the information the Women's Directorate provided for the briefing. As the Member said, I met with the director yesterday. I have read all the reports the Women's Directorate has published. It is because I believe in women's equality that I am so very disappointed in this government's performance.

I spoke about this government, this Minister, his colleagues, and the way they have acted toward women in this territory. I am not going to go through the list again, but there is one issue I have never received an answer from this government on, and I will ask the Minister to respond to it.

In this House, on the floor of this Legislature, that Minister made a commitment that the Victoria Faulkner Women's Centre would be supported for a mortgage guarantee through the Yukon Housing Corporation. During the final days of the budget debate last year, the Minister responsible for the Yukon Housing Corporation stood up and was so proud of himself because he had given instructions to his department to set up a mortgage guarantee. The Yukon Housing Corporation had it all worked out and it was just in the women's centre's court to find a house to buy, and it was right there - a done deal.

The House shut down, the women's centre found a house, the deal was set up, and it went off to Cabinet, only to be turned down. The deal was killed at the Cabinet table. I guess the Government Leader - who likes to say that a deal is a deal is a deal - did not believe it when it came to housing for the Victoria Faulkner Women's Centre.

Can the Minister tell me why that deal was killed?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: We made a commitment at that time to try to find permanent accommodation for the Victoria Faulkner Women's Centre. The debate has gone on over and over in this House. The Member keeps saying that it was a mortgage guarantee, though she knows it was much more than that. I am not going to get into it.

I will perhaps ask her where she was for seven years when the NDP was in power? The NDP never made one single offer to help the Victoria Faulkner Women's Centre find a home. It never even made an offer to help.

At least we have made an offer to help. The Victoria Faulkner Women's Centre thanked me personally for trying to work with them to try to find suitable accommodation. The particular arrangement did not work out, but we at least made an effort.

We offered three different options to them and none of them were suitable at the time for various reasons. Her government, which pretends to care, never even made an offer, despite the federal cuts that were coming down at the time.

The Member should not be criticizing us for not finding them a home. The Member's party did not even make an effort.

Ms. Moorcroft: The Minister just stood up and said that the offer the women's centre was looking at was much more than a mortgage guarantee. It was less than a mortgage guarantee; it was nothing - zip. The particular arrangement did not work out because the government rejected it. The Minister is not answering the questions about it.

I asked the Minister another question to which I did not get an answer. I will try again. I would like to know if he will be providing me with information about the maintenance enforcement program. How many cases does the government have of parents who are intermittent in their family support payments?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: Talk about an absolute waste of time. I am sorry, but when we debated this the other night, I gave that commitment to the Member.

Ms. Moorcroft: Where is the information?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I told the Member that I would provide it. The Member wants it at the snap of her fingers, but she cannot take the time to show up for briefings. She cancels at her whim. We cancelled and rebooked her three times. People have other jobs to do other than waiting at the beck and call of the Opposition Member.

I told the Member that I would get the information for her as soon as it is available. It might be today, tomorrow or early next week. I made the commitment the other night - I hope we do not have to go back over all this, as the Member obviously does not agree with the maintenance enforcement program in the way it is laid out - and I will get the information for the Member as soon as possible.

Mr. Cable: I have a few questions. I was not at the briefing but a staff member was. At the briefing, the Women's Directorate was defined as a change agent and a project initiator.

The question I have for the Minister is this: what formal review mechanisms are built into the planning process to ensure that actions are taken to promote gender equality and to reduce violence against women, and to determine whether or not the programs that are underway are having the desired effects?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: The focus studies and surveys that we have done are extremely good baseline data, so we will, in future, be able to conduct polling and more surveys with Yukon women. We have the baseline data now from that focus group so that will allow us to determine whether or not we are being successful.

Mr. Cable: Is the Minister saying that there is a formal system set up to review the efficiency of the programs?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I understand that evaluation models are being developed. Presently, evaluations are conducted after each workshop by asking participants attending the workshop how successful they thought it was.

Mr. Cable: I have a question that requires some explanation, because it has been relayed to me by the staff member who was at the briefing.

Is the Women's Directorate planning to lobby for changes in legislation to pull abusive men out of homes and keep them out of the home by restraining orders rather than forcing women into publicly funded transition homes?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I believe the Member may be talking about the Domestic Violence Act in Saskatchewan. It is something we are looking at and we may want to react to it, but we have not done so at this time.

Mr. Cable: I know it will not solve all the problems, because you can get all the restraining orders in the world that you want, but there are always rogue elephants that will not obey them. Does the Women's Directorate see the increase in the efficiency of the restraining orders as being a viable tool in reducing family violence?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: It is one of the tools. A lot of enforcement things can be done as well. It is a useful tool, but it is not the only one.

Mr. Cable: When do the directorate and the Minister intend to reach some conclusion and make a decision of whether or not to bring in legislative changes of the sort that we referred to a moment ago - the Saskatchewan Domestic Violence Act?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I understand the Saskatchewan model just came in January, so it is pretty new. That government is monitoring the issue in Saskatchewan with respect to the safety of the women. Many of the jurisdictions are watching that one closely, because it is such a new model and approach.

There is a meeting coming up in the next few weeks for Ministers responsible for the status of women. I suspect that might be one of the matters we talk about.

Mr. Cable: What kind of strategic planning does the Women's Directorate do to determine which projects and which funding proposals to take on, based on which actions are likely to be most effective in furthering issues of gender equality?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: At the present time, there is not a full complement of staff at the Women's Directorate. It is waiting for a policy analyst. It has started the strategic planning, but as soon as the policy analyst is on board, that will be a priority of the department.

Mr. Sloan: One of the areas of concern I have is that women face significant economic barriers when going into business. For example, banks have traditionally been reluctant to provide the same level of assistance to women going into business.

What initiatives are being undertaken by the Women's Directorate to try to overcome some of these systemic barriers in the financial field to women getting involved in small business?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: That is one of the items on the agenda for the Ministers meetings. Although we are not leading the way on that, there are three pilot project ongoing, I understand, and they will be reported to us at that meeting. One of the projects deals with women in small business - exactly what the Member is talking about - so I will be looking forward to hearing what the report says and the recommendations it offers.

Mr. Sloan: In my ongoing search into the wonderful world of contracts, especially in dealing with sole-sourced contracts and small businesses, I have been impressed by the number of women, particularly younger women, who have gone into business. That is a very, very commendable trend.

Can the Minister give us a sense of whether or not the government will be considering, in developing contract regulations, some kind of a system to promote and facilitate women going into business, particularly in small business?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: There are already a lot of women in small business in the territory, as the Member mentions. I do not think there is a plan for a specific program. That might be something for which we might initiate discussions with groups such as the Yukon Women's Business Network and see how their members feel about it, but at the present time there is no particular program.

Chair: Order. We will take a brief recess at this time.

Recess

Chair: I will now call Committee of the Whole to order. We are dealing with Bill No. 10. We are discussing the Women's Directorate in general debate.

Mr. Sloan: I would like to follow up on my further comments about women in business.

Some of the initiatives that have been undertaken by young women, particularly, in non-traditional occupations, are, I think, commendable. There has been a promotion for young women to go into the trades, and things of that nature.

It has been my experience that young women do not frequently think of business, or entrepreneurship, as a traditional occupation. Has the Women's Directorate given any thought to developing these types of programs for young women?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: There are a couple of things that we are doing in this area. One is the producion of a booklet that informs young women about those kinds of opportunities. T

he other that I am quite familiar with is in conjunction with the Department of Education. Businesswomen go into the schools and speak to the students. I know that from personal experience, because my partner was doing that last week. She was asked by one of the schools to speak to a classroom of young women about entrepreneurship, the opportunities, how she got involved in business, and how it could be a career. That program is happening now in the school system.

Mr. Sloan: In some of my teaching experience, one of the things that I would often do is talk with young women about the concept of the glass ceiling, as it is called.

I wonder what the government's policy is concerning the promotion of women, and how this is conveyed. In other words, I would like a sense of the activist channels used within the government to encourage women to aspire to different roles in government.

Hon. Mr. Phillips: That is one of the topics of discussion of the Women in Government Committee. Also discussed is how to overcome those barriers. That is the kind of thing that gets passed on to the Women's Directorate. We would then discuss it with the Department of Education, through our working relationship with it and other departments, to see how it could be implemented in government policy.

Mr. Sloan: One of the things I have often observed is that one can have policies, but until there is almost a culture change within society or government, those changes do not often occur.

Are women actively encouraged to seek managerial or administrative positions in all aspects of the government? In other words, is there an attempt to encourage, through training workshops or whatever, women to aspire to different roles in government?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: Yes, we are really focusing our efforts in the employment equity field. In fact, a women's leadership conference is scheduled for this fall at Yukon College, in which the Women's Directorate is very much involved. We also have an Employment Equity Implementation Committee that works on those kinds of issues, as well.

Ms. Moorcroft: I have a few more questions for the Minister responsible for the Women's Directorate. I have to point out to him that the Minister's responsibility is to defend his government - not to attack the critic.

I am sorry that I did not attend the briefing. As I explained to the Minister and as I explained to the director, I obtained the information before I came into the House. The Minister still has a responsibility to answer questions in this House.

The Minister issued a challenge about what the New Democrat government had done for women, and where was the Member in the past, and so on. I would just like to remind him of a few things. I know the Member for Whitehorse Centre, who was the Minister, has a lengthy list and we can continue debate for quite some time if the Minister wants to do it that way, but I will just focus on some of the highlights the New Democrat government contributed for women in this territory.

The NDP government established the maintenance enforcement program and the employment equity program, and brought equal pay for work of equal value to this government. That is something the Minister over there opposed. He opposed and objected to equal pay for work of equal value at the time the previous government brought it in.

The New Democrats financially supported the Yukon Indian Women's Association and the Victoria Faulkner Women's Centre. It brought in child care funding that has made the child care program in the Yukon one of the best in Canada.

The Minister also asked about housing for the Victoria Faulkner Women's Centre. I was not a Member of the government and the Minister knows that this is my first term in office. I was not a Member of the government when the New Democrats were in government, but it was never asked to provide housing. I can tell the Minister that the next New Democrat government will make sure that the women's centre is housed.

I would like to ask the Minister to respond to the few questions that I have left and not to provoke debate - unless he wants to; he is laughing; he thinks this is entertaining. That is fine. We can continue.

Can the Minister tell me when the answers that he said he will bring back regarding the maintenance enforcement program will be provided? Does he know if it will take a week or two or a month or two? Can he tell me that?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I would hope that I could get the information for the Member by the first part of next week at the latest. I do not think it will be that hard to do.

Ms. Moorcroft: The Yukon Equity Project is a community-based group with involvement from the Yukon Teachers Association, the Victoria Faulkner Women's Centre and students from F.H. Collins, the YES youth group, women's studies at Yukon College, as well as the government. I am pleased to see that Women's Directorate is supporting the Yukon Equity Project again this year. I would like to ask the Minister to describe how the women's centre budget will be supporting the Yukon Equity Project?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: We are certainly going to help them with all their funding proposals. We are also going to assist them to obtain some money from the Status of Women Canada, as well.

Ms. Moorcroft: One of the projects about which we learned from the budget briefing was the safe teen project, which the Women's Directorate is co-sponsoring this month. There will be training for people to work with young men and women on violence prevention. I would like to ask the Minister if that training will be taking place in Dawson or in Whitehorse? Who will be taking the training?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: Primarily it will be the kids who are involved in the training, as well as some teachers. It will be in Dawson and in three schools in Whitehorse: F.H. Collins, Porter Creek Junior Secondary and Riverdale Secondary.

Chair: Are we prepared to go line by line at this time?

Ms. Commodore: The Minister responsible for the status of women continues to talk about the Women's Directorate and how nothing was done before he became Minister. He said his government has done far more than the former government. I have to say that I take offence to that, because it is not the case.

In 1985, when the New Democratic Party formed the government, the Women's Directorate was not even in existence. It was a tiny element of the Department of Justice, tucked away in a back corner where the former Tory government put it, with someone working two days a week. For the record, I would like to provide a list of some of the programs that were introduced after the Women's Directorate was formed, after it had an advisory committee, and after it had been in existence for as long as the NDP was in power.

I want this on the record. These are not all the things that happened then, but they are some of them.

The Women's Directorate developed a government-wide action plan for women with input from all government departments. It researched and presented a public workshop on pay equity, produced a fact sheet on Yukon women's income, and co-produced with Justice a handbook on pay equity. It initiated a government-wide economic development strategy planning process to ensure that women had input into Yukon 2000, which was acclaimed by economists across the nation.

It sponsored a women-in-the-economy conference in Haines Junction, which led to the discussion paper, Women in the Yukon Economy: a Blueprint for the Future, prepared by Monica Townsend. It produced handbooks on how to get a job, on employment rights, and how legislation affects employees. It brought Nicole Morgan, a feminist writer, to the Yukon and, from her visit, the Women in Government Committee was born. I do not know if that committee is still in existence; it was in 1992.

It brought Marjorie Cohen, a feminist economist, to the Yukon to put on a series of lectures and invited her to help persuade Yukon College to consider women's studies courses.

Later, the Women's Directorate worked with an ad hoc group of women to introduce an introductory series of lectures on women's studies at the college. Through these and other efforts, the Women's Directorate was instrumental in bringing women's studies as an area of programming to Yukon College.

It has done a number of women-on-wheels trips to communities; sponsored career fairs that highlighted women in non-traditional roles; initiated and co-sponsored with Simon Fraser University the first Women Do Math conference with young women in grades 7 and 8; initiated a discussion paper on child care that resulted in a territory-wide consultation coordinated by the Women's Directorate, and from this consultation there was a report that was the impetus for a multi-year Yukon child care strategy that resulted in over 100 new child care spaces in the territory and a Child Care Act.

We provided support to the Yukon Indian Women's Association for their healing project Dene Nets'edet'an; researched training needs for entrepreneurs; co-sponsored a conference for women entrepreneurs, and from this first conference the Women's Business Network was formed; shared and founded the interdepartmental committee on Yukon family violence that resulted in a government policy on family violence and a number of initiatives; was given the mandate to develop a public awareness strategy on family violence, and to this end developed a directory on family violence resources and services that recently had its second printing - this was written a couple of years ago with other community agencies; sponsored two family violence conferences that brought together many care givers, resource and support people throughout the Yukon - as a result of that, one of the recommendations that came forth at the first conference was that a community letter on family violence be produced, and I do not know if that newsletter is still in existence - celebrated Yukon women at a variety of events such as Yukon women's awards banquets, Yukon women artists exhibition and, through publications such as Celebration 1992, daybooks that featured young women; produced a booklet for grades 7 to 9 that featured Yukon women in non-traditional occupations; produced a history text for grade 10 students that highlighted social history and the contribution of women to society during the year.

I am stating this for the record, because I am getting sick and tired of that Minister saying that this government has done far more than the previous government ever did. That is not the case. The Minister has continued to improve on programs.

This is my last day in the House, unless we sit again tomorrow, so I want this on the record. The Minister can stand up and brag all he wants to about the former government doing nothing.

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I do not think I said that the former government did nothing. I think it was the Member for Mount Lorne who accused this government of doing nothing. In fact, I have risen in this House many times in this debate to respond to questions about the Women's Directorate and talked about some of the positive initiatives that the previous government had started. The women's survey was one of them. I talked a lot about that.

I know that the Member read off a list of good things that her government did. I take exception to the Members opposite saying that we have done nothing.

I am going to save the House a lot of time, because I have four pages with some 30-plus initiatives that our government started. However, I would like to ask that these four pages of 30-plus initiatives be included in the record. I will not read them out, because it will take me half an hour to do that. However, I would certainly like to have them included in the record of this debate. I think it is important that if the Member puts her side on the record, that we also put our side on the record. I am not condemning what her government did.

Some Hon. Member: (Inaudible)

Hon. Mr. Phillips: The Member said that she was defending her record. I am not criticizing her record. In fact, I have commended the former Minister for some of the initiatives that she started. There is not doubt about it. There were some very good things started under that government with respect to women's issues. I took exception to the Member for Mount Lorne who said that the Yukon Party has done nothing for women. That is patently false. We have done a lot for women.

I will pass this to the Page. I ask that it be recorded in the record and that copies be sent to the Member for Mount Lorne and the Member for Whitehorse Centre.

Ms. Moorcroft: I feel that I must clarify the Minister's mistaken comment. I did not stand here to complain that the government has done nothing. I stood here to call the government to account for some of the things that it has done that I believe have broken trust with women in this community. The record will show that, and I stand by it. I do not think that the Minister has acquitted himself very well in this debate.

On Operation and Maintenance Expenditures

On Policy and Program Development

Chair: We will go line by line at this time.

On Program Delivery

Hon. Mr. Phillips: The increase of two percent in program delivery reflects increasing the communications coordinator's position from a .5 to a .8 FTE.

Ms. Moorcroft: I understand that the work of the communications coordinator will be to complete the policy work on the gender-based analysis the Minister spoke about in his introductory report and to follow up on the implementation of gender equity in the public schools policy. Is that correct?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: No. That will be the job of the policy analyst who will be coming on stream. The job of the communications individual will be to carry out the anti-family-violence programs that we have in the educational programs.

Program Delivery in the amount of $287,000 agreed to

On Public Education

Hon. Mr. Phillips: The decrease of one percent from public education is the net result of reducing out-of-territory travel by $500; a recovery of $2,000 for out-of-territory employee travel from the federal government; increasing communications by $2,000 to better reflect actual costs; and reducing program materials by $3,000 better reflects actual costs.

Public Education in the amount of $73,000 agreed to

On Violence Prevention

Hon. Mr. Phillips: The decrease of 21 percent in violence prevention is the direct result of recoveries of $12,000 from the federal government for a contract administrator by the Yukon government's Women's Directorate as a co-chair of the federal-provincial-territorial working group on violence against women. This is one-time-only funding, solicited from the federal government by the working group.

Violence Prevention in the amount of $46,000 agreed to

Operation and Maintenance Expenditures for the Women's Directorate in the amount of $406,000 agreed to

On Capital Expenditures

On Policy and Program Development

Chair: Is there any general debate on this program?

We will go line by line at this time.

On Office Furniture, Equipment and Systems

Hon. Mr. Phillips: The sum of $8,000 is allocated for office furniture, equipment and systems and a new workstation to replace the computer that is 10 years old and is no longer adequate or capable for the director's needs and the cost of developing and maintaining a computer system for the directorate, such as the financial information resources management system.

Office Furniture, Equipment and Systems in the amount of $8,000 agreed to

Policy and Program Development in the amount of $8,000 agreed to

Capital Expenditures for the Women's Directorate in the amount of $8,000 agreed to

Women's Directorate agreed to

Yukon Development Corporation

Chair: We will now move on to the Yukon Development Corporation. Is there any general debate?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: It is a $1.00 item, and I will be happy to answer questions.

Mr. McDonald: The Minister may remember that when we were dealing in Economic Development and Finance with the venture loan program, we made it clear that we wanted to have a chance to discuss the venture loan program before leaving, so I am presuming that now is the time. Is that the Minister's understanding?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I thought the Member was going to discuss it with the Minister responsible, the Minister of Economic Development, any time during the budget. I do not have a problem with it. We can get the Minister of Economic Development down here to discuss it, if the Member would like. I do not have the program with me here. It is an Economic Development program; it is not a Finance program.

Mr. McDonald: The Minister did indicate that we were going to have a chance to discuss this program, so if he would simply point to the line at which we can discuss it, I will wait until that point to discuss it. If now is the time, that is fine. If now is not the time, it is not.

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I am sure that if the Minister is not busy, he will be down here. If not, we can do it right after the break, when the Minister is here. It is his program, so I think it is only appropriate that it be discussed with him.

Mr. McDonald: Okay, we will wait. Presumably, he, or someone else, is listening. We will wait for the Minister of Economic Development to show up.

In the meantime, can the Minister tell us whether or not the Yukon Development Corporation, as a corporation, has a work plan? Does it have anything independent of the Yukon Energy Corporation that it is slated to do in the coming year?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: The only one that I am aware of, as the Member knows, is that the mandate of the corporation has been curtailed to deal only with energy issues, and I am not aware of anything planned for this year.

Mr. McDonald: The Yukon Development Corporation does receive funds from the government with respect to the lease of the old Yukon College. I believe it makes some money there. What is the government's policy with respect to the way in which those funds should be used?

If the Yukon Development Corporation Board spends all its time on energy matters, how does the government think the income received by the corporation should be used?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: We have made the policy decision that any income that the Yukon Development Corporation makes will only be used for energy-related matters.

Mr. McDonald: Does that include the operation of the Yukon Energy Corporation as a board? Is the Government Leader saying that all the income that the Yukon Development Corporation receives should be turned back for administrative operations or for any purpose the Yukon Energy Corporation feels it should be used?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: My understanding of the financial setup is that the Energy Corporation pays dividends to the Yukon Development Corporation. Those dividends then flow to general revenues. Right now, those dividends are being used for the rate relief program. That is the only thing that the Yukon Development Corporation is involved in.

Mr. McDonald: The Minister is saying that the Yukon Development Corporation does not receive any income from, say, the lease of the old Yukon College. Is he saying that it has no other income except what it receives from the Yukon Energy Corporation?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I believe that the Member may be right. The Yukon Development Corporation may be getting something from the lease of the old Yukon College, but I do not have a note on that here. I am saying that any of the revenue it gets is used only for energy-related projects or to finance rate relief.

Mr. McDonald: Has the Yukon Energy Corporation had any further discussions with Yukon Electrical about the rationalization of the utilities? Are there any plans in the works to make changes in the operating structures relating to the way the Yukon Energy Corporation and the Yukon Electrical Company interact?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: As the Member is aware, there have been ongoing discussions and, with the renewal of the management agreement, which is coming up for renewal, I am sure that there will be more discussions along this line.

Mr. McDonald: Has the government given any policy direction to the Yukon Development Corporation Board or the Yukon Energy Corporation Board in this regard?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: There is nothing new from what they were working on before. We are concerned with the management agreement, and we want to take a serious look at it now that it is up for renewal.

Mr. McDonald: As the Minister has indicated before, there is apparently an extension of the deadline for renewal of the management agreement. Has the government given the Development Corporation any direction in any way respecting concerns about the management agreement or issues that it would like to see addressed in the management agreement with Yukon Electrical Company Ltd.?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: No, we have not dealt with it because the corporation has been heavily involved, as the Member is aware, with the rate increase application and with getting its capital plan ready for the summer. My priority is to start dealing with that once the session is finished, because I think we have until the end of June to talk about the management agreement.

Mr. McDonald: Until the end of June: that is a new date to remember. What are the government's intentions respecting the management agreement? Can the Minister tell us what long-range objectives the government has with respect to the relationship between the Yukon Energy Corporation and the Yukon Electrical Company Ltd.? Can the Minister tell us what the feelings are about the relationship between the two corporations?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I have raised my concerns with the corporation. I do not think this is the best arrangement that we can have, and I want to seriously look at it to see if there is a better arrangement, something that we can feel a lot more comfortable with and that people will understand.

Right now, people have great difficulty, at times, understanding what the Yukon Electrical Company Ltd. does and what the Yukon Energy Corporation does. This government would like to see if there are any options available to us and explore those options, now that the management agreement is up for renewal. This is something that was embarked upon quite a few years ago, but a satisfactory solution was never reached by the previous government or this government.

Mr. McDonald: What are the concerns that the government has with the arrangement? Is it the asset base that the two corporations share? Is it confusion about distribution? What are the specific concerns the Minister feels should be addressed?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: There is no clear understanding in the public as to what the Yukon Electrical Company Ltd. owns, what it is responsible for and what the Yukon Energy Corporation is responsible for, and with those two entities, the government gets drawn in together with Economic Development.

There are no clear lines of responsibility for people to understand. In many instances, the government takes the political heat for things that it ought not to be taking the political heat for. If nothing else, there has to be a better educational program developed for the people of the Yukon, so they understand who is delivering power to them and what the agreement is.

Mr. McDonald: I think most people understand where their electricity bill comes from. I certainly have no trouble understanding that, but as I understand it, the concern is not so much that the public is confused about with the shared asset base is.

As we discussed previously, the Yukon Utilities Board is arguably an imperfect vehicle for overseeing the expenditures of the utilities in any kind of detail at all. Can I ask the Minister this: does the Minister see the Yukon Energy Corporation playing a role in overseeing the activities of the Yukon Electrical Company Ltd.? How does he see it doing that?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I wish I had the answer.

The Member opposite is aware that the way the legislation is structured now, the Yukon Utilities Board, not the Legislature, is the watchdog of the utilities. I know that we sometimes have difficulty with that; however, the government of the day made a conscious decision to set it up that way. It is a method to monitor utilities that is used in other jurisdictions. I do know that Prince Edward Island has changed back. It got rid of its Public Utilities Board and the power rates are set on the floor of the Legislature. However, this is the system that we have in place in the Yukon. We have made a commitment to keep it arm's length from government.

We are going to see if we cannot make it work better and I believe we have already taken some of the basic steps to improve it. As people get more used to the new guidelines that have been put in place and the new operations of the Yukon Utilities Board, I believe it will work in the best interests of all Yukoners.

Mr. McDonald: With the greatest respect, that is a proposition that is worthy of a great deal of debate, but I will not engage in it at this moment. I will, though, ask the Minister what he feels the role of the Yukon Energy Corporation is with respect to its relationship with the Yukon Electrical Company Ltd. Does he feel that it has a watchdog role to play? Does he feel that it has the public interest to protect and, if so, how does it do that?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: The Member is aware that the Yukon Energy Corporation is a very small corporation. It has very few employees and is operated by a management agreement with the Yukon Electrical Company Ltd. It is through that management agreement that we have accountability from the managers.

There is some difficulty and some confusion, because YECL has a parent company through whom it buys supplies, and I am not certain that consumers feel at all times that they are getting the best bang for their dollar.

The time is now, with the management agreement coming up for renegotiation, to address those concerns and try to get something in place with which we all feel comfortable.

Mr. McDonald: The Minister has probably hit the nail on the head when it comes to consumers not feeling that they are getting the best bang for their buck, particularly with respect to where Yukon Electrical Company Ltd. purchases its materials, but the Minister did indicate that the Energy Corporation oversees the electrical company through the management agreement and that there are very few employees. Is he satisfied that the public interest is protected, given that the Energy Corporation has so few employees and that the electrical company essentially calls the operating shots of the entire utility base?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: From my understanding, that is the basis of the management agreement. The Yukon Electrical Company Ltd. runs the operation and I do not see that there is a need for a whole lot of employees at the Yukon Energy Corporation. The Auditor General said in his report that we were getting value for money with the management agreement.

Are we getting value for money? According to the Auditor General, we are.

Mrs. Firth: I have quite a few issues I want to follow up on with the Minister responsible for this corporation. I want to begin first by telling him that I have had a fairly extensive briefing with the chair of the corporation board and with the president of the corporation. My researcher and I spent some time with them. We also have been corresponding, so that I can get as much information as possible from them.

There are several areas about which I want to question the government with respect to the entire operations of the Yukon Development Corporation and the Yukon Energy Corporation. I also have some ideas that I would like to present to him, after I have raised my questions. I may do that this evening or tomorrow when we do the third reading speeches of the budget. I will see how the time goes and what kind of answers I get.

My first question is this: I listened closely to the Minister when he talked about the Yukon Energy Corporation being set up and that it was to be at arm's length and that it was done a long time ago by the previous government. I remember being a Member in the House and debating the issue at the time when NCPC was transferring the assets to the government of the day.

I have read the Office of the Auditor General of Canada's report to the board of directors on the value for money in the management agreement that was done for the Yukon Energy Corporation. Obviously, the Auditor General took a considerable amount of time to go back into the history of the transfer of NCPC's former assets to the Yukon.

I read an interesting paragraph on page 7. It is under the title, "Understanding of the Management Agreement." It says this: "When Yukon Energy Corporation became the owner of NCPC's former assets in the Yukon, it was intended that it would not only have an operational role, but would also implicitly have a policy advisory role to the territorial government. This would then in effect give Yukon Energy Corporation the responsibility for overall management of electricity in the Yukon, a fact that was understood during the negotiations between the federal and Yukon governments that were carried out prior to Yukon Energy Corporation's assumption of ownership. It is also consistent with the YEC's current corporate objectives."

When the Energy Corporation was established under the Business Corporations Act, I do not think the intention of the government of the day was that the Yukon Energy Corporation be at such arm's length that it became unaccountable to the owners of the assets, who are the people of the Yukon. I heard the previous Leader of the Opposition, who was the Government Leader at the time, say that it was not the intention. The Energy Corporation seems to becoming more and more distant from the people who actually own the assets - Yukoners.

The relationship between it and the Yukon Electrical Company Ltd. seems to be getting closer and closer. We, as Yukoners, and Members of the Opposition, are finding it more and more frustrating with each sitting of the Legislature to try to get information about the operations of the Yukon Energy Corporation. There was a time when we could get contracts and information about the corporation, but there has been an attitudinal change - and perhaps philosophical, as well - with this government.

When it came to office three and a half years ago, for the first year or two, I was able to get this information. Then all of a sudden there was a change. I do not know what that change was, who initiated it or why it came about, but I would be rather interested to know what happened. Everything is operating the same now as it was before, except our ability to find out what is going on in the Yukon Energy Corporation. Perhaps the Minister could begin by telling us who initiated this change, and why?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I am not aware of any change. I know that Cabinet has not directed a change. I believe that the board of directors is following the policy guidelines and legislation that are in place. It may be the attitude that the board is taking.

I do have some difficulty with the Member opposite wanting accountability for the Yukon Energy Corporation in this Legislature and then our having a very expensive body - the Yukon Utilities Board - that is supposedly the watchdog of this thing.

I do not think that we can have both. I do not think that we can afford to have both in a jurisdiction the size of the Yukon. I am not aware of any jurisdiction in Canada in which there are two watchdogs.

I think that it is probably a choice of government between using a utilities board as the watchdog of the corporation or to bring it back into government and let the Legislature be accountable. I believe that the reason it was set up the way it is was to de-politicize it and not have it dragged out on the floor of the Legislature all the time. I believe that was the intent of it.

I know that there are Members opposite who want it back on the floor of the Legislature. I would think that it is a decision that government will have to make. Is it appropriate to bring it back into the Legislature and politicize it, or should we use the Yukon Utilities Board?

We chose to leave it in the regime of the Yukon Utilites Board the foreseeable future and let the board be the watchdog of the corporation. We have something in the Yukon that is a little more convoluted than in other jurisdictions. Part of our utility is a Crown corporation and part is a private company. That is where a lot of our difficulty comes from.

Chair: The time being 5:30 p.m., we will break until 6:30 p.m.

Recess

Chair: I will now call Committee of the Whole to order. We are dealing with Bill No. 10, entitled First Appropriation Act, 1996-97, and are in general debate on the Yukon Development Corporation.

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: Earlier in Committee debate, I made the commitment that I would allow Members opposite to ask some questions on the venture loan program. The Minister responsible is here now, and we can get into it right now.

Venture loan program

Mr. McDonald: We have asked a number of questions about the venture loan program in Question Period and expressed some concerns about how the department protects taxpayer interests.

The program is managed, in essence, by the banks. The banks take in the clients and determine whether or not they are going to get a loan. Presumably, they then tell the department that they wish a portion of the loan to be guaranteed by the government.

Can the Minister tell us in some succinct way how the department ensures that the bank is not only following the guidelines, but is also doing something that it otherwise normally would not do?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The department will be reviewing the applications to ensure the people meet the eligibility criteria. Because it is a partnership and the risk is shared with the banks - I am not saying there is no risk - the banks will be sharing the risk. They will not lend money to people they do not feel are able to pay.

Mr. McDonald: From the guidelines, I understood that would be the case. Obviously, if the banks have any risk at all, they will make sure they can minimize the risk.

However, I am trying to get an idea of how the department will know it is not simply backstopping loans the banks would otherwise normally provide. Banks loan money every day.

Obviously they will be looking for collateral and will be doing all the things that normal lenders do. How does the department know that the banks are not simply transferring risks, that they would normally accept, to the government?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The department knows what the banks' criteria are for lending and if, in fact, the scenario that the Member painted - where the banks attempt to use the venture loan guarantee to cover loans they would normally make anyway - it would become quite evident to the people in the department who look at the applications.

For instance, if someone were to want to borrow $100,000 and, say, $80,000 of it is fully secured, leaving $20,000 unsecurred, the banks might very well use our program. However, if a different person wanted $100,000 but it was entirely secured, the people in Economic Development who review the application would consider it a normal situation that the banks would cover and would ask why the banks would want the department to share the risk.

As I said before, the people in Economic Development know what the criteria for the various banks are, so if a venture loan does not meet with that criteria, it would be sent back to the bank. Why would Economic Development agree to share a risk that the banks would normally accept anyway?

I am not saying that some might not slip through, but, generally speaking, because we do know what the criteria for eligibility for bank loans, it would be very easy to determine whether or not the banks would cover loans in a normal lending situation.

Mr. McDonald: The banks are going to be doing the evaluations of the projects. They are going to be doing assessments of risk. They are going to be meeting with the borrower. They are going to be personally assessing the assets associated with the project. They are going to be dealing with the project with a great deal of intimacy.

The Department of Economic Development will be dealing with the project as a paper exercise. So, it is fairly easy for the bank to be able to say to the civil servant, "This is riskier than we would normally otherwise consider for a loan. We are a little bit concerned about our own portfolio right now. We do not feel that we can actually take on any more risk. We really need the government to provide the guarantee."

Having known of people who have gone to banks for commercial funding, I know how subjective the assessment can be. A person can be rejected by one loan officer in one bank, and another loan officer will snap the person up. One loan officer may thinks the person is too high a risk; another one thinks the risk levels are fine.

I am still quite concerned about this particular feature of this program. A few people I have spoken to since Question Period yesterday who are familiar with commercial venture capital and loan policies suggest that this one feature would be the most difficult for the department to assess: dealing with the borrower at arm's length through a pile of papers that are essentially coordinated and designed by the bank, a financial institution. I guess I remain skeptical about that point.

Can the Minister tell us why the bank is able to charge a variable interest rate in order to cover its risk and loss, while the government charges a fixed percentage interest rate?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The 1.5 percent is not interest - it is an administration fee to cover the administration cost of the department.

The variable interest rate is to allow the banks some flexibility with respect to the amount of risk. They will still be taking a 35-percent loss on any loan that is called in. The variable amount is going to depend upon the level of risk the bank is taking.

Mr. McDonald: Essentially, the program does not cover the risk for the taxpayer. The taxpayer is going to make an expenditure at some point to cover off losses. Is that correct? What does the government anticipate on a $3 million contingent liability? What does it expect in terms of the annual expenditure it would have to pay?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: That is really hard to assess. The business development fund has a loss ratio of about 20 percent. There is no question that this is risk capital, so it may very well be similar. The department has been up front about that, in saying that it does not know, but it expects that it could be as much as the business development fund loans.

The other thing is that the total amount that can be lost is $3 million. That is the total amount that can be outstanding at one time.

Over a long period of time, if and when the total amount outstanding - over a period of 10 years, or whatever - became $3 million, Cabinet would have to determine if it would increase funding for the program.

Mr. McDonald: Why would the government not charge more than an administration fee - perhaps an interest rate - so the borrowers, through the additional interest rate, would cover loan losses?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The main reason is because it would become very expensive. High risk loans are generally expensive to start with. The very minimum is probably three percent above prime. If we were to add another three to five percent, it could end up being 10 or 13 percent above prime, which would be very onerous for someone starting a business.

Mr. McDonald: I agree. I understand that one principle of lenders is to try to cover the costs of lending. I understood that the business development fund, for example, and other loan programs the government sponsored actually covered their losses through the interest rate. Is that not correct?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I had a difficult time finding out how they worked. I was initially told that the business development fund paid for itself. I thought that was wonderful. However, in fact, it has about a 20-percent loss ratio. It probably covered the losses if no administration at all was included.

Mr. McDonald: This program does not even attempt to cover losses for the government. At some point, no matter how we calculate it, we are going to be assuming some liability. If we assume some loss rate, at some point the government will have to pick it up through an actual expenditure.

It might be hard to calculate all the costs for the business development fund, both administrative and for loan losses, but there is certainly a significant attempt to cover them off. This appears to be an expensive alternative for a government that wants to get out of actually providing loans. I am surprised that the government is opting for this approach, because it does not appear to be taxpayer-friendly. Secondly, it appears to be a program that puts a lot of the control in the hands of banking institutions.

How many people in Economic Development are actually going to be responsible for managing the government's obligations under this program? Will it be three or four people? How many people?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: It will actually be fewer than one person. One person will be handling it as part of other duties.

Mr. McDonald: A part-time person will be looking out for this $3 million program, with all those clever banking institutions and clever loan officers out there, who are charged with minimizing risk to their employer and maximizing their profit? I guess so.

How is the expenditure going to be made? We talked about this in the Legislature. The Minister, at one point, indicated that there would be a line item in the budget. There was a line item in Economic Development that the Minister referred to - I cannot remember what it was called - when he said that might be the one that would provide for expenditures under this program. How is that going to work?

How do we pay for the losses?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: First, I would like to answer the comment about the part-time employee. This is not a part-time position, as was insinuated. The person in the department is a full-time employee and this will be part of his job.

Over the year, the department will assess and make a judgment on what it expects the maximum possible loss could be and put a line item in the budget. That is similar to what is done under the loan guarantees in the business development fund today.

Mr. McDonald: First of all, I did not mean to insinuate that the person was a part-time employee, meaning that they only did this and was a homemaker for the rest of their day. I am glad to see that they get full-time pay and full-time benefits and all that sort of thing. I was just referring to the fact that they were only working on this program part time.

In response to the Minister's remarks, does this mean that there will be a voted line item every year, accounting for all the losses in the previous year that the government feels it must absorb as a result of the program from the previous year? How does that work precisely?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: Hypothetically, there might be an item of $100,000, and there would be expenditures out of that if there were any losses. Say the next year the expenditures went over budget, so that $150,000 might be required. There would be a line item in the budget to cover the losses.

We do that now. In fact, I think we went around and around about it in budget debate in Economic Development, if I remember correctly, where we had exactly that - a line item for potential losses. If I remember correctly, there was a recovery on the other side to offset it.

So, there is not actually an expenditure unless there is a loss.

Mr. McDonald: I think we went around and around, because it was not clear whether or not there was going to be an expenditure and a recovery or whether or not this was going to be an expenditure authorized under a regulation, and that then we would make an expenditure through the estimates to cover losses. That was still not clear at the time. What the Minister is saying is that there will be an estimate of losses annually, and by year-end the actuals will be either over or under the estimates, in the same way the bad-debt line item in Finance is structured - at $67,000 - to cover what is anticipated to be bad debts for that particular year. Is that right?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: Yes, it is. I should just point out that the department feels that the losses are going to be minimized because of the fact that there will be personal guarantees from the borrowers.

There was a venture loan program in place in Nova Scotia. The program was eventually stopped because of the losses. The Nova Scotia government decided to get out of the program. There were some differences between their program and ours and the one big difference is that all they required was a personal guarantee for 10 percent of the borrowing. In our program, the loan is fully personally guaranteed by the borrower.

In Nova Scotia, if there was a failure - again, let us use a hypothetical number of $50,000 - and there was still $50,000 outstanding on the loan, a 10-percent personal guarantee would realize only $5,000 and the borrower would be free of the debt.

It did not work at all. Nova Scotia eventually quit the program. I think the other problem was that they were doing that themselves. It was not a partnership program with the banks as we are currently doing. The government was taking all the risk. There was only a 10-percent personal guarantee whereas ours is a full guarantee.

Mr. McDonald: I am aware of some government loans that were covered with personal guarantees. If the Minister thinks that they are going to guarantee anything, I would ask him to pick up a case file for the Belvedere Hotel in Watson Lake, and he will understand precisely how difficult it is to collect. I do not think it is necessarily the panacea for problems.

As the Minister is probably aware, I have some significant concerns with the program. My concerns are not a secret.

I will be looking forward to seeing how the work proceeds over the next year and how things operate. Some of us will be back next year, and I am sure we will be able to do a good review at that time.

Mr. Harding: I am not going on about this at this point in the session. I have not been convinced at this point that this is exposing the taxpayer to any less risk than the business development fund. In fact, I think it is quite the opposite. I suppose the only difference is that rather than government controlling a loan program now, which appeals to some people who seem to hate government, the banks are controlling it. If some people feel that this is better, I guess that is the decision the government has made.

Numerous concerns about the program were pointed out. My colleague just talked about the personal guarantee issue. I will not speak to that, but I was going to say the same thing that he just said about personal guarantees. That is not a departure from the system that we already had.

I want some rationale on a question. It has been locked in. It does not say that the loan guarantee is up to 65 percent of the venture loan; it says 65/35. It is a hard-fixed percentage for the venture loan in terms of guarantee and exposure.

Earlier, we were talking about interest rates of prime plus three to prime plus 10. The Minister stood up and said that they were to match the type of level of risk that is assessed for the project.

I was wondering why, when the program was designed, that equation could not have been calculated more favourably.

Rather than anchoring a 65/35 split, why could there not have been some flexibility in terms of the venture loans, and the portion we were going to be on the hook for, based on the risk of the project?I cannot imagine anyone being able to make a payment at the prime interest rate plus 10 percent. Could the Minister explain that to me?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: This figure came from negotiations with the banks. I think I may have mentioned in the House at one time that we wanted a 50/50 split. I believe I was talking about that during the last session when we were first discussing the venture loan program.

The other problem is that the more risk the banks took, the higher the interest rate would be, and after negotiations the 65/35 split was what the lending institutions would agree to.

Mr. Harding: Well, that is precisely the problem when you deal with banks on these types of loans. Obviously, they are pretty good at negotiating; they got us locked in with a 65/35 split; they have a floating interest to cover their risk ranging from prime plus 3 percent to prime plus 10 percent.

I cannot imagine anyone paying interest rates from 15 to 18 percent, when interest rates are about four or five percent. Right now, the prime interest rate is around eight percent. We have an inflation rate of approximately two percent, so real interest rates are very, very low.

The potential for charge, under this program, is incredibly high. Seeing how it is borrowers of last resort who qualify for loans under this program, people are not going to have a lot of negotiating power.

These are my concerns and I do not think the Minister has answers for me, because I have not heard any tonight. We will see how it rolls.

I know the loan limit is $100,000, but I looked at one scenario as an example. It was a $120,000 loan, at 12 percent for six years. One assumes that the business starts to default after three years. By that time, half of the loan has been paid, so the bank already has $60,000 back. In addition, the bank has been receiving interest for three years, at 12 percent, which comes to $27,300. Then they get back from the government, after the default, 65 percent of the loan amount and principal that is outstanding, which comes to $39,000, for a total of $127,300. So, they actually end up making $7,300 on that loan while, we, as taxpayers, take a $39,000 loss. It is going to be interesting to see how this works.

Mr. Cable: I just have a couple of questions. I think the fund has been misnamed. It is not really a venture capital fund at all. Rather, it is a mortgage insurance arrangement, whereby the government, much the same as Central Mortgage and Housing, insures loans. Venture capital loans are basically high risk/ high loss arrangements with very high returns - either a piece of the action or very high interest rates.

Having got over that problem with the name, what is the gap in the lending market that this is designed to address? I think we touched on this very briefly one night. Is it a geographical gap, or is it a sectoral gap?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I believe I did talk about the geographical aspect. That was a part of the rationale for the business development fund. We felt that people in the Yukon were not able to access capital as well as could be done in Vancouver or Edmonton - in the provinces. In fact, that was proven to be inaccurate.

Within the Yukon itself, I think it will make a difference. It is not necessarily sectoral. However, I think there are problems. For instance, someone with a building for security in Ross River - and maybe they own the building outright - would not be assessed as being able to borrow as much in Ross River as the person would be if the building were located in the City of Whitehorse, or possibly even Watson Lake or Dawson City. I think there may very well be some geographical differences here in the territory.

Mr. Cable: Is the Minister of the view that the private lending market is not doing the job in Whitehorse - the five commercial banks and the federal Business Development Bank - to the extent that it requires the government to play a role?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: We did a fairly extensive consultation. This was the gap that we found when we were dealing with lending institutions. The gap is that the banks will fund businesses but they want a fully secured loan, especially in the communities. There are people who have security but not enough to provide whatever it is the banks want. We thought that this program might fill that gap.

The other thing that should be noted, as well, is that we will do a full evaluation of the program after one year to determine if we are actually filling a gap. If there is no uptake, why bother doing it? Perhaps our loss ratio will be too great. We do not know, so we have committed to do an evaluation after one year of operation.

Mr. Cable: I think the business development fund was set up and focused on job creation. Is this fund going to be focused on that as a determining factor and will it be one of the determining factors in the evaluation?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: It will certainly be something we will look at when we evaluate it one year from now.

Yukon Development Corporation - continued

Mrs. Firth: I do not have any questions about this program. I would like to go back to the Yukon Development Corporation and Yukon Energy Corporation.

Before the break, the Minister responsible for the Yukon Development Corporation and Yukon Energy Corporation was telling me that he had not observed any memo or directive to indicate that there had been a change in the practices. Yet, there has been a change. The Minister can take it from me. I have been following it as an Opposition Member. In the fastidious way that I have been requesting information, there has been a very obvious change to me.

I used to be able to get lists of the Yukon Energy Corporation contracts. I cannot get them any more. The Government Leader says the Utilities Board is the watchdog, but it does not get lists of the contracts either - I have checked.

I have been given a letter that says that the Yukon Energy Corporation does little tendering on its own, as all capital projects are handled for it by its manager, the Yukon Electrical Company Ltd.

There has definitely been a change in the operations of the Yukon Energy Corporation and, I think, its relationship with Yukon Electrical Company Ltd.

Can the Minister responsible tell me when that change came about? My observation is that it has become far more pronounced in the last year, because I found it almost impossible to get information. It has also been more difficult to get the Minister to cooperate by bringing officials to the House to give information, and it has been generally more difficult to get information from the Yukon Energy Corporation.

What has prompted the change? Why is there a change so that it has decided to become so arm's length that I cannot get any information?

I am not asking the Legislature to set the utility rates or to become involved in that. I would just like some public accountability for the money the Yukon Energy Corporation expends so that I can tell my constituents and other Yukoners what that money is being spent on.

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I have a note from the corporation. It says that the decision not to release Yukon Energy Corporation contracts to the public was made by the board of directors not long ago. It does not say when. The Member may be right that it was in the last year.

It states that the decision was a means of enforcing the arm's-length relationship with the Government of the Yukon.

Mrs. Firth: I guess I am skeptical about why the board decided to do that and on whose recommendation it was being done, or if it was entirely its own decision. I am just going to have to remain skeptical, because I do not think we will find out. I think I can live through the next five months, because there will then be some changes. I will wait for the changes.

I have some concerns and questions about the management agreement.

I gather one of the problems of the management agreement was the lack of opportunity for renegotiating. Is that correct? Is the Minister concerned about that particular aspect?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: No, I am not really concerned about renegotiating it because it comes up for renegotiation every five years. It does not have to be renewed. I have a note here. In 1991, Yukon Energy Corporation entered into a management agreement for the period April 1, 1992, to March 31, 1997, with Canadian Utilities Ltd. and Yukon Electrical Company Ltd. Under the terms of the agreement, YECL is responsible for the operation, maintenance, management, planning and design of Yukon Development Corporation's assets and systems. The agreement provides for an annual fee, which is to be adjusted each year by 80 percent of the percentage of change in the Yukon consumer price index. The fee for 1995 was $788,460. The fee for 1996 will be $792,840.

In that agreement, they are supposed to be notified by March 31, 1996, if the agreement is going to be renewed. Because of the general rate application, we have extended that deadline to June 30, as to whether we are going to be renewing the agreement or re-tendering it. That decision has yet to be made and the corporation wants to negotitate with the managers on some issues - I do not have them all in front of me today but I know they want to clarify some concerns before they make the decision or the recommendation to the board to renew the agreement.

Mrs. Firth: My understanding from discussions with the president of the corporation was that that was a concern: that the one opportunity for renegotiating it was at that fourth or fifth year, was written into the agreement and it was going to be the only opportunity.

That was a concern of his and I shared that concern. I asked the president what kind of renegotiation terms they would like to see and if they would like to see annual ones, which I think are reasonable. They can be looked at annually, and the president agreed that that would be his preference as well. If I am not mistaken, that has to be written into the agreement. It is not presently written into the agreement. That is a concern I bring forward, and I would like to see that concern addressed.

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: That will be part of the renegotiation.

Mrs. Firth: The Minister has to sign the agreement. That is the final step. The Cabinet and the Minister ultimately sign the agreement. I guess my concern is this - and the Official Opposition may have a similar concern - what kind of commitment is going to be made on behalf of the next government? I would like to see some more of the details of some of the outstanding issues, which were referred to by the Minister, that have to be resolved. I would be interested in what those issues are, and I would like to know if the Minister is prepared to provide them to me.

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I do not have them. We have not gone into negotiations with them yet, but as I said, I have to sit with the board, once we get out of the House, to see how it is going to go about entering into discussions with the managers about renegotiation of the agreement and whether or not the decision is going to be made to renegotiate the agreement satisfactorily to the desires of both sides or if they are going to re-tender the agreement. I do not know exactly what is going to take place. Those discussions have not taken place yet.

Mrs. Firth: Is there not a team set up already? I see the Minister is shaking his head indicating "no". I thought that the team may not be pulled together, but I was told that Davis & Company and Intergroup Consultants and the president of the corporation will be conducting negotiations with YECL regarding the management agreement. Am I mistaken in that assumption?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: We use the same people for advice all the time. Davis & Company is the legal firm that we use. We also use a consultant from Manitoba who does work for us on an ongoing basis and has been doing the work for us on the general rate application. The same people are involved.

Mrs. Firth: When those consultants are involved in these negotiations, who will be paying for the consulting contracts? Will it be the Yukon Energy Corporation or the Yukon Development Corporation?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I believe it will be the Yukon Energy Corporation. The consultants are managing the assets for the Yukon Energy Corporation.

Mrs. Firth: I think that is information that we, as Members of the House, should have access to. I would like to know what the terms of the contracts are, how much they will be tendered for and what the ultimate cost will be to the Yukon Energy Corporation.

Are those contracts going to be tendered separately, or, as I read in the letter from the president, are they going to be tendered through the Yukon Electrical Company Ltd.? If the Yukon Electrical Company Ltd.. tendered for consultants to work on the management agreement contract with the Yukon Electrical Company Ltd., I could see a bit of a conflict. Can the Minister tell me how this is going to work?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: My understanding is that they are standing-offer agreements with the law firm and the consultant. The consultant has been doing work in the Yukon ever since we took over the facility from Manitoba. The legal firm has been working for us as long as I have been in government. I imagine that it was doing our work before that time.

I believe that they are on standing-offer agreements.

Mrs. Firth: Who are the standing-offer agreements with?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: With the Yukon Energy Corporation.

Mrs. Firth:

In the letter I have from the president that talks about the contracting rules and what rules the Yukon Energy Corporation follows, I am told that the Yukon Energy Corporation does little tendering on its own and that the manager of the Yukon Electrical Company Ltd. does the contracting. The Minister is saying that the Yukon Electrical Company Ltd. did not do the contracting for this and that it has just been on a standing-offer agreement for several years. Is that what he is saying?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: Yes, that is what I am saying. The Member was talking about contracts let for work to be done for the utility. Those are the ones that are let by our managers. In this instance, the legal people and the consultant will be working for the Yukon Energy Corporation and representing it in negotiations with the Yukon Electrical Company Ltd. for the new management agreement.

Mrs. Firth: I think I understand what the Minister is saying, but I am not quite sure about this whole relationship.

In the management agreement, I have received information from the president regarding a list of system employees, which forms part of the management agreement. It says that while all of the employees, except those few positions in the head office of Yukon Energy Corporation, are in fact employees of the Yukon Electrical Company Ltd., the government does transfer funds to the Yukon Electrical Company Ltd. to pay for the positions, and portions of positions, of employees who work on the assets owned and operated by the Yukon Energy Corporation.

In this list we have a breakdown of the percentage of time spent on the Yukon Electrical Company Ltd. and Yukon Energy Corporation. Under this management agreement, does the general manager of the Yukon Electrical Company Ltd. perform work for Yukon Energy Corporation, because that is the way it looks to me.

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I am not certain if the general manager of the Yukon Electrical Company Ltd. does work for the Yukon Energy Corporation. Part of the audit that was completed by the Auditor General was to see if the corporation was receiving fair value for its dollar, and the Auditor General reported that we are.

Mrs. Firth: I have no dispute with receiving fair value for our dollar, but I would like to know what the reporting relationship is and who is doing what.

I know that the president of the Yukon Development/Energy Corporation spends approximately 80 percent of his time working on Yukon Energy Corporation matters and not on Yukon Development Corporation matters. In fact, most of the employees spend their time in that same area, because there is practically nothing going on in the Yukon Development Corporation. All the activity is focused on the Yukon Energy Corporation, which is the corporation that we cannot find out anything about. I am sure the Minister can appreciate my concern.

The president told me that he has regular communications with the manager at the Yukon Electrical Company Ltd. -sometimes on a daily basis, or perhaps two to three times a day. Could the Minister tell me how often he communicates with the president of the corporation and what his relationship is with the president? Would the Minister talk to the president regularly, frequently, or occasionally? What communication does the Minister have with the president, and for what reasons would the Minister communicate with the president?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I communicate with the chair of the board. I go through the president sometimes when the chair is not available, but the line of communication is through the chair of the board - through the chair of the board to the president.

Mrs. Firth: That was what the board told me, but the president said that that was not completely correct and that he did communicate with the Minister fairly regularly.

On what kind of matters would they be communicating?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: Policy matters.

Mrs. Firth: Let us get into some of the policy matters. Can the Minister give me some examples?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I can give the Member one example off the top of my head. I have not communicated that much in the last while because they have been busy with the general rate increase. I have not been involved in that.

It was our desire that the Yukon Energy Corporation and the Yukon Electrical Company Ltd. issue a contract locally to see if they could obtain telephone poles locally. That is the kind of communication we have. I eventually made a presentation to the board about it. I asked the president for details about where they were getting the poles and how. I told him about Cabinet's desire to see that contract filled locally. We do not know whether or not we can, but we have asked the board to consider putting out a contract locally. My understanding is that the instructions from the board to the utility has been to see if that request can be accommodated.

Mrs. Firth: The government does give some policy direction to the Yukon Energy Corporation. The Minister is nodding his head to indicate "yes".

The other question that I have is this: what exactly is the relationship between the Yukon Energy Corporation and the Department of Economic Development? We have asked questions in this House and the Minister of Economic Development has said that his department is doing one thing or another. I believe the Sweatman contract was one example. It was something to do with the studies on coal. Yet, when I went to check the Economic Development contract, it was not handling it; it was the Yukon Development Corporation and Yukon Energy Corporation that were handling them.

Who takes the lead role? What is the reporting relationship and what is the relationship between the Department of Economic Development and the Yukon Energy Corporation and the Yukon Development Corporation?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: The Yukon Energy Corporation and the Yukon Development Corporation are responsible for electrical generation in the territory. The Department of Economic Development does studies such as the one the Member was talking about in relation to coal, and in other areas where government has some desire to look for opportunities for economic expansion.

In some cases, there is a close relationship. I do not have them with me, but if the Member went back to the business plan of the Department of Economic Development, she would see where the relationships fall together.

Mrs. Firth: Does the Department of Economic Development charge the Yukon Development Corporation for contracts? The Minister is shaking his head, "no". The contracts were paid for by the Yukon Energy Corporation; they were not paid for by Economic Development. I could not find the contracts on Economic Development's contract list. When I looked at the Yukon Development Corporation and the Yukon Energy Corporation, there they were.

How does that work?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: It would depend upon whether or not it was doing work directly for the Yukon Energy Corporation or for Cabinet.

Mrs. Firth: How do we know who the Department of Economic Development is doing work for - for Cabinet or for the Yukon Development Corporation?

How is that decision made?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: If Economic Development was doing it for Cabinet, it would be in the budget and would be answered for by the Minister during estimates for his department. If it was doing it for the Yukon Energy Corporation, it would be done under cost recovery.

If the Member reviews the business plan for Economic Development, it would answer most of her questions.

Mrs. Firth: I have reviewed it, and all it does is raise more questions. The Yukon Development Corporation does not have an annual business plan, so I have nothing to compare it to. I am saying this because, in the letter I received from the president, after asking for the annual business plan, he told me the Yukon Development Corporation does not prepare an annual business plan, and the one at the Yukon Energy Corporation is confidential.

I am sure the Minister can appreciate that I have little information with which to make comparisons, because everything is confidential.

The Yukon Development Corporation is only allowed to become involved in energy concerns. Can the Minister tell me if it is discussing any energy issues other than the generation of electrical energy? If so, what are they, and what do they consider to be within their mandate to discuss?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: The Member answered her question before she asked it of me, when she said she had information from the president that there was no work planned for Yukon Development Corporation because all the Yukon Development Corporation is doing is solely monitoring its investments right now. It is not doing anything so there is no work plan. It is not involved in anything at this point.

Mrs. Firth: So why do we need them?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: That is a good question. We were at one time, and I think I said this before, talking about eliminating it, but then there was some rationale for retaining it as the holding company for the utility; otherwise, we would have had to turn Yukon Energy Corporation itself into a Crown corporation on its own.

Mrs. Firth: The Minister has to look at that. We have to look at getting rid of one or the other. If Yukon Development Corporation can only deal with energy matters anyway, we may as well just have one corporation, call it the Energy Corporation and be done with it. The Minister can take that for what it is worth. I would still like to have him work on the public accountability aspect of it, though, because I do not want to lose what little bit of information we have the ability of getting from the Yukon Development Corporation.

Can the Minister tell me if the Yukon Development Corporation is involved at all in looking at the potential oil and gas industry? Did it have any involvement in the Yukon Oil and Gas Act? Was it consulted at all or did it have any input into it?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: No.

Mrs. Firth: Is it looking at any other forms of energy generation - coal, thermal energy or anything like that?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: Not at this time, according to the briefing note I have.

Mrs. Firth: I want to ask the Minister a question about the electrical subsidies that the government provides. The subsidy ends, I believe, in January 1997. Is that correct? I think it is around that time, anyway. It goes for another year. Perhaps the Minister can confirm that date for us.

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: The rate relief program will continue until December 31, 1996.

Mrs. Firth: What happens then? I guess the government would have an opportunity to review it to see whether or not the rate relief should be continued, or would it stop immediately? If it does, I would like to know what the potential impact would be to Yukoners.

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: No, it would not stop immediately on December 31, 1996. I have already made that commitment in the Legislature several times. We were waiting for the rate application to be over with. We want to design a program to get out of rate relief over a long period of years so it does not have an impact on the amount consumers pay on their bills every month. So, we are trying to find a way to get out of it without it having an impact on the money being paid by consumers.

Mrs. Firth: Can the Minister tell me what the annual amount of that rate relief program is?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: In 1993, we paid out $427,883; in 1994, we paid out $2,710,316; and in 1995, we paid out $3,113,087; for a total of $6,251,286. Rate relief for 1996 will cost an estimated $3,355,000.

Mrs. Firth: That is a considerable amount of money to try to retire over a period of years, particularly if the electrical rates keep increasing. Can the Minister give us some idea of what kind of program is being looked at?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: The Member is aware that a rate stabilization fund would be put together, which was approved by the Yukon Utilities Board. We hope to make use of the rate stabilization fund to get out of rate relief over a long period of time, in order that it would not have an impact on consumers' power bills.

Mrs. Firth: What does the Minister mean by a long period of time?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I would be speculating, but somewhere in the neighbourhood of seven to 10 years.

Mrs. Firth: Does the Minister anticipate that it is going to finalized in the next five months, within the term of his government?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: We are hoping that we can have it done before rate relief expires on December 31, 1996, or else we will have to lengthen it another year if we do not have a program in place.

Mrs. Firth: We will be having an election before that. I am making a list of outstanding issues for the new government.

On the return on the rate base that Yukon Energy Corporation and Yukon Energy Corporation apply for in the general rate application, the order-in-council specifies that Yukon Energy Corporation gets one-half percent less than YECL on the return on the rate base. If the government changed that order-in-council from - what is it now? YECL is asking for 11.25 or something - about 10.5 percent, or within that neighbourhood, and if the government decided to drop it to, say, 5 percent, the electrical rates could go down immediately, could they not? Has the government considered that as an option?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: The Member is right. If we were to do that, the rate would go down, but I think that would be a very foolish thing to do because, at some point, the Yukon Energy Corporation is going to have to make capital investments. They are going into a capital hearing right now. If we are going to have a utility that is going to supply power and meet the increased demands of power in the Yukon, we are going to have to have some capital to do that.

That is the difficulty with rate relief. It is a nice thing to get into at the time that it is being done, but it is also an albatross around one's neck when trying to get out of it or to try to get money for capital projects for the expansion of the utility. We are in a difficult situation and it is going to take a long period of time to get out of it.

Mrs. Firth: Another thing that I am curious about are the profits of the Yukon Energy Corporation and the Yukon Development Corporation combined. The previous government had huge profits to spend. This government must be amassing some profits. I see the Minister is shaking his indicating "no". When I read the annual reports and financial statements, it appears that they are not either, but I have to ask where all the money is going. We are collecting huge amounts of money. What is happening to it?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I just told the Member that over $6 million went right back into rate relief, and there is $1.5 million or $2 million in capital improvements each year that the Yukon Energy Corporation has to do without any major expansion. The government itself has not taken any dividends from the Yukon Energy Corporation during my term in office.

Mrs. Firth: The Minister is saying then that there has been about $9.8 million paid in rate relief, and approximately $2 million a year for capital would make it about $6 million. That is about $15 million that the corporations would have had. Does that make sense?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I do not want the Member to hold me to this figure, but I believe that the dividends were somewhere in the $4 million or $5 million range per annum.

Mrs. Firth: This is per annum? The Minister is nodding yes.

I do not know how the Minister is going to figure this all out. I guess the impact of changing the order-in-council and reducing the percentage of the return on the rate base would make it almost inoperable. Is that what the Minister is drawing as a conclusion?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I will resubmit the information I just gave the Member. In 1996 alone, we will be paying out $3,355,000 in rate relief. If we do not get a return on the investment, we will not have that money to pay out rate relief.

Mrs. Firth: I have difficulty in believing the hard-luck story attached to this, but I will keep following up with questions.

I want to ask about a specific project. The building in which the Yukon Development Corporation is leasing space is coming up for renewal. I understand that it is going to be building some offices at the Whitehorse dam. Is that correct?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: Yes, the Member is correct.

Mrs. Firth: Perhaps the Minister could give us some details about that.

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I do not have the details. I am trying to recall what I was told, but I believe $500,000 is being spent on the offices. They believe that because of the high cost of renting office space, it will pay for itself very quickly.

Mrs. Firth: I have the figures for Yukon Development Corporation office and equipment rent. To me, it looks like the office rent is almost $27,000 per year. I see the Minister saying, "More than that," but that is what I see from the 1996 business plan worksheet. I have a couple of concerns.

First, I have a concern about the capital expenditure. If you can rent office space at a reasonable price - this figure appears to be reasonable to me.

Second, this is the third example in the last two days that we have heard about where this government is moving government employees out of rental space in the private sector and putting the offices into government-owned buildings.

The tourism offices are going to be moved from a privately owned building. The historic resources people will be coming out of several little spaces that are being rented from the private sector and moving to their new facility, and now we have the Yukon Development Corporation/Energy Corporation constructing its own building for $500,000, again moving from premises rented from the private sector to the government.

Who made the decision to do this?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: The board of directors.

Mrs. Firth: That does not scare me off. If the board is making decisions that I do not think are healthy for the business community, I think I have a responsibility to raise that question. I really question why the board is choosing to build office space at the Whitehorse dam.

Can the Minister give me any details about the offices? Are the offices going to be specially designed because of the noise level at the dam? I cannot imagine that location being the best place to have an office. Could the Minister tell me where the construction is going to be, when the anticipated move-in date is, how many offices there will be or any other details about the new office location?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: No. I am sorry that I do not have any details. I can get them to the Member. I do not have them with me. There is nothing in my book about it.

Mrs. Firth: Can the Minister tell me who is going to occupy the new space? Does he know who is going to be there?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: The corporation employees will be there.

Mrs. Firth: Just the employees? Will there be any space for the board? Will there be offices for board members? Will there be any space there for Yukon Electrical Company Ltd. employees?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I do not have that information. I will have to get it for the Member. I am certain that there will be a board room where board meetings will be held just as meetings are held in the existing offices now.

Mrs. Firth: I will have to wait to get the information.

For the record, I would like to know how many offices there will be. The Minister has said that the total cost is $500,000. I want to know how many offices, what kind of building or facility will be built and where it is going to be located. I want to know if there are going to be any offices for Yukon Electrical Company Ltd. employees and space for the board.

I would like a rationale from the board about why it thinks it is a good decision to build rather than rent space from the private sector as it is doing now.

I know that when I was at the Yukon Development Corporation/Yukon Energy Corporation for the briefing, the working environment seemed to be quite adequate and comfortable. I would certainly be interested in having some justification for the change.

I am sure that the Minister will have the president look at the Hansard and provide me with that information.

I want to ask the Minister this question: where is the $500,000 to pay for the office going to come from?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I guess that it will come from revenues.

Mrs. Firth: Will it come out of the revenues of the Yukon Development Corporation/Yukon Energy Corporation? The Minister is nodding his head, "yes".

Therefore, electrical consumers are paying for it. I think that is fair to say, is it not?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: It is certainly fair to say that. They are paying the rent now. I will get the information for the Member and she can make her own judgment about whether or not it was a wise investment.

Mrs. Firth: Somehow paying rent does not seem as bad as paying for a whole new building, but we will wait and see.

I have some questions about the relationship between the Minister and the president. The Minister has indicated one example of his phoning the president to ask about getting power poles locally. I had some criticism of the Minister in the House a week or two ago about an announcement he made about the fish ladder viewing facility. The Minister kept maintaining that there was an arm's-length relationship between the Yukon Energy Corporation and the government.

Can the Minister tell me how it came about that he was making the announcement about the fish ladder, rather than the corporation making its own announcement? It does have a communications person who is shared with Yukon Electrical Company Ltd. I would have expected that that would be an announcement it would make. Why did the Minister make it?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: For the same reason I am standing here this evening answering questions on behalf of the corporation.

Mrs. Firth: Did the Minister phone the president of the corporation and indicate he wanted to make the announcement?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I do not believe that is the way it was. I believe the president told me the decision had been made by the board to go ahead with it. I am not certain who mentioned it might be done by way of a ministerial statement.

I am the Minister responsible for the Yukon Energy Corporation, and I think it was appropriate that the statement be made in the Legislature, since it was sitting.

Mrs. Firth: I do not dispute that the Minister is responsible for the Yukon Energy Corporation. What I dispute is that, when I ask the Minister questions about the Yukon Energy Corporation, he says he will not answer them because they are at arm's length from each other.

I take dispute with the issue that, when there is something good to announce, the Minister makes the announcement. As I understand it, the Minister heard about this and phoned the corporation to ask about it. I have my own idea of what happened. I know I cannot phone the president and ask him, because he is not allowed to tell me how the incident became public because of his confidentiality privileges.

I can only speculate that when the Minister found out about it, he thought it would be a good idea for him to make the announcement, so he did. The press release even came from the communications office of the Cabinet. I believe the press release was written by the Minister's communications coordinator.

Again, I say the Energy Corporation and Yukon Electrical Company Ltd. have a 50/50 cost-shared communications person. Yukon Energy Corporation used to make their own media announcements, but another observation I have made is that they do not seem to be doing that any more. There are no announcements. If they are good announcements, the Minister takes credit for them. That is another change that causes me to be a bit skeptical about what is going on.

I know other Members have some questions. I have a few more, but I will collect my thoughts and finish later.

Mr. Cable: I gather there will be a capital plan hearing this summer for the corporation. Is that correct?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I am not certain of the dates. They are waiting to get the general rate application behind them, but I know there will be one this summer.

Mr. Cable: Has the Minister been advised as to the contents of the capital plan that will be put forward to the Yukon Utilities Board for consideration?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I am not familiar with all the details of the plan. I do not think it is finalized yet because of the general rate application. I know that they have been looking at how they are going to expand their electrical base power needs. As the Member is fully aware, in December of this year, we were running close to capacity with diesel and all hydro on the grid. They are running into a crunch. I know that they are going to be looking at the viability and feasibility of extending the power grid from Carmacks to Pelly Crossing and then eventually on to Mayo. Those are some of the areas.

They are also studying the technical feasibility of several transmission options. Among them are an extension along the Klondike Highway, about which I just spoke, to pick up Minto and Western Copper, and then on to Pelly Crossing.

I

t could even be an extension from Mayo to Carmacks, to tie in the Mayo hydro facilities, so that we could use it on the grid, if no mines were operating in the Mayo area. As the Member opposite is aware, with Dublin Gulch coming on and the possibility of the Elsa mine going back on, there will not be enough power if Dublin Gulch decides to go on to the grid. So, that is being looked at.

Another study being undertaken is a 138 Kv line extension from Faro to Cominco's Kudz Ze Kayah property. Some preliminary numbers are being obtained on that. I think we are fairly confident that there will be a mine in that area. The issue to be decided now is if it will be one or two mines, and what will happen. I do not think that there is too much doubt in anyone's mind that there will be a major development in that area.

I think that is about it.

Mr. Cable: Did I hear the Government Leader correctly - about half an hour ago - when he said that the Yukon Development Corporation is not looking at coal?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: The Yukon Development Corporation did the Simons study, which said coal was viable. I think coal is going to be one of the options that it will be looking at in its capital plan this summer. It is going to be looking at all options and whatever is the most viable is the one that will get the green light from the Yukon Utilities Board. I do not think any of those plans are finalized at this point, but what I did say a while back was that we had changed the policy whereby it was all right for the corporation to explore coal as a viable alternative.

Mr. Cable: Then, perhaps I misunderstood the Minister. What the Minister is saying is that in the capital plan hearing, he expects that the Yukon Energy Corporation will be putting forth a submission on a coal-generating plant as an option. Is that what he is saying?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I am not certain if that has been finalized, but I know that that is an option that the corporation is examining.

Mr. Cable: Has the Minister been advised about load projections that the Energy Corporation is working on - the best case and worst case load projections?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: Yes. Just with normal development, it is looking at a shortage of about 20 megawatts.

Mr. Cable: When would that shortage arise? What is the time frame?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: We could use more than 20 megawatts right now to replace the diesel we are using. We are burning diesel 12 months of the year on the grid, and we will continue to do that. I am getting very, very concerned when I see the price of oil going up like it has been in the last few months.

Mr. Cable: What the Government Leader is saying, then, is that a significant new generating capacity is imminent. There will be a firm application, I assume, in the near future. It will be something more than just the exploration of options before the Yukon Utilities Board. Is that a correct interpretation of the situation?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: That is correct.

Mr. Cable: When the Government Leader issued the directive to the Yukon Development Corporation to examine coal-fired electrical generating capacity, did the Government Leader expect some sort of product to come back from the Yukon Energy Corporation, other than the Simons report? Did the Minister expect to receive some recommendation?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I believe the recommendations in the Simons report say it is viable.

Mr. Cable: Did the Government Leader expect a discussion on viability when he issued the directive, or did he expect something more as to whether or not the burning of coal was desirable?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: No, we were not expecting anything more than that, because the burning of coal is a viable alternative. The Member opposite must be aware that diesel generation emits a lot of carbon monoxide into the air.

For the replacement part of the load, we will not be adding any more carbon monoxide emissions than what we are now by burning diesel fuel. Also, we will be creating jobs in the Yukon for Yukoners.

Mr. Cable: That has been the government's position. Whether or not it would hold water in relation to some environmental imperatives remains to be seen.

There have been a number of discussions in this House on the ownership of the Yukon Energy Corporation and the ownership of possible new generating facilities. Who will make the decision about whether or not private partners will be brought in to develop new generation? Will it be the Yukon Energy Corporation or the Minister?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I believe it will be the Yukon Energy Corporation that would look at all options to see which is the most economical and where the least risk to the electrical user in the territory lies. We have made the policy changes required so we could go to non-utility generation, both on and off the grid. This is just another option for the Yukon Energy Corporation to look at when it goes in front of the Yukon Utilities Board. I am sure that all these options will be put to the Utilities Board.

Mr. Cable: I do not think the Yukon Energy Corporation would move to take on a partner without the backing of this government and the Minister. Has he issued any instructions to the Yukon Development Corporation holding company on his wishes, and does it have permission to pursue bringing in private partners?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I think the Yukon Energy Corporation is fully aware of our desires. We have had many discussions about whether or not, because we are a small utility, the ratepayers will be able to afford to carry the capital costs of the extra electrical generation that will be required. It might not be sold for the next couple of years, and that is why we brought in the secondary sales policy, as well, and are equipping government buildings. That way, they can be hooked up to electrical as a secondary interruptable power supply at a very low rate to use up some of that capacity, if we ever get to the point where that is an issue.

We have also asked them to look at how there may be a partnership between government and the Yukon Energy Corporation. The government could backstop the Yukon Energy Corporation if it were short, say, the grid extension to Mayo. Perhaps it could not afford it all on the rate base without increasing the rate. That is where the government could come in and perhaps play a partnership role.

We are examining all the options.

Chair: Order. We will take a brief recess at this time.

Recess

Chair: I will now call Committee of the Whole to order. We are dealing with Bill No. 10. We are discussing Yukon Development Corporation in general debate.

Mr. Cable: On another issue about independent power producers, there are two different types of independent power producers that require different hook-up policies. One is the large, independent power producer that sets up a generator and sells large blocks of electricity to the corporation, such as the plant at Braeburn, which would sell any excess to the grid. We have talked about that and I think that is what the non-utility generating policy addresses.

There is also John and Suzie Doe, who have a small wind or hydro generator for their house that they use during the day. In the off hours they would like to sell excess power to the grid, so they have a grid connection. I know the utility companies generally view these people as a pain, but I know that in some jurisdictions, Alberta being one of them, there is a policy for a hook-up for these types of individuals.

What is the Government Leader's view about encouraging people to generate their own electricity and hook up to the grid?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: We have not addressed that yet, but we do have a policy that states a non-utility generator has to provide a steady base load of power.

Mr. Cable: I have been approached by several people who would like to get in the business. I am not talking about multinational corporations or individuals with large plans.

They may want to set up a small hydro site, for example, on creeks on their property or adjacent to their property. Has the government looked at that sort of a hook-up policy?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: Yes, we have. As the Member is aware, the difficulty that we have is that all of these are run-off -the-river projects and they do not produce power when the power is needed. They do not provide it in the winter; they produce it in the summer when there are good water flows. Even the one at Rancheria cannot handle the lodge without diesel backup in the winter. That is the difficulty in the Yukon. We just do not have the water resources for those kinds of projects. In the future, I think there will be room for them but at the present time, there is not.

Mr. Cable: On the subject of non-utility generation policy that the government brought in, has this government been approached by any corporations to use that policy? In particular, I am thinking about the Braeburn coal deposit. Has the government been approached - formally or informally - by anyone to discuss generating power by coal as a private generator and then hooking up to the grid to sell the excess?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I guess we have.

Mr. Cable: Who has approached the government?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: The proponents of the Braeburn project did, but we told them at that time that we were not even prepared to enter into discussions with them until the utility does its work, finds out what it needs and goes through its capital hearing process.

Mr. Cable: Is the Government Leader saying that he is leaving the decision to deal with the proponents of private generation to the Yukon Energy Corporation?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: For non-utility generation, yes. Any of them would have to conduct contracting talks with the Yukon Energy Corporation.

Mr. Cable: What sort of megawattage are the private proponents suggesting for the project?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: Again, no one knows, because the Yukon Energy Corporation cannot say how much power it needs.

Mr. Cable: I thought we had established early on that they need a lot - whatever the verbiage was - and that there is a need in the Government Leader's mind to replace the oil fossil fuels with either coal or something else.

Has there been no discussion at all about the size of the generating facility that the proponents would like to put up?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: Any developer would like to put up the biggest possible facility it could and sell as much power as possible to the corporation. Until we know how much power the corporation can handle and whether or not it is going to go the route of the non-utility generator, all talks are just preliminary.

Mr. Cable: Will this private sector project be put to the Yukon Utilities Board in the capital hearing that is coming up this summer?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: No, because only very preliminary discussions have taken place. They will go to the Yukon Utilities Board with their capital projects to see how much the utility can handle on the rate base and how it is going to arrive at it. I do not know what the final decisions are yet. As I said, there is a lot of work to be done on it.

Mr. Cable: Basically, what the Government Leader expects the Yukon Utilities Board to do is look at the load projections, pass judgment on them and then pass judgment on the viability of some alternatives that will be produced in the way of generating facilities. Is that correct?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I think the role of the Yukon Utilities Board is to say yes or no to proposals put forward by the Yukon Energy Corporation with respect to how much capital investment the ratepayers can handle.

Mr. McDonald: I have one quick question. Can the Minister tell us whether or not he would be making a commitment to any proponent that would generate electricity to sell into the system? Would the Government Leader be willing to come back to the Legislature to seek approval to provide financing or financial guarantees of any sort before the project goes ahead?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I believe we have to have an appropriation from the Legislature to enter into something like that. Without it, I do not know how we could do it.

Mr. McDonald: I am not referring only to government making expenditures, but I am talking about government providing a guarantee of some sort to a power producer. For example, if the Division Mountain coal proponents came forward and said that they wanted to build a project but need some government guarantees, does the Government Leader feel that he would be obligated to seek approvals from the Legislature before providing the guarantees?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: That would not be how it would work. The only way I can see it - and this is purely hypothetical because nothing was discussed - is that the Energy Corporation, in order to entice a non-utility generator, would have to be prepared to make a long-term contract for X number of kilowatts over so many years. If there was a role for the government, it would be to backstop the Energy Corporation, not the private non-utility generator.

Mr. McDonald: Even if the government were to backstop the Energy Corporation, if there is a long-term liability or even if there is any liability associated with a project such as this, would the government feel obligated to come back to the Legislature and seek approvals first?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I believe we would. I have not looked into it in detail because we are nowhere close to it yet. We have not even got into any discussions on it at this point. Everything is, as I said, very preliminary and purely hypothetical at this point.

Mrs. Firth: I want to just make some comments. I think I have finished most of the questions I had for the Minister but there is the outstanding issue of privatization. Is that a dead issue, or is the political will still there to look at it? Are the Energy Corporation and the Development Corporation still examining that particular aspect?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: No, there is no will to do it. In fact, we take the position that we never were privatizing. We were going to involve First Nations, which is another level of government in our opinion.

Mrs. Firth: I do not want to get into a big harangue about privatization. We have been through that for the last three years, but the impression was that the government was looking at privatizing. How they were going to do it is the debatable point.

Is that offer still open to the First Nations by this government?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I believe I put a stop to it at that point, because they could not get financing, I left the door open so that, if they ever had the financing, we would be prepared to enter into discussions to see if they could buy into the corporation.

Mrs. Firth: I guess the Minister has not heard from them, or has he? He is saying no, he has not heard anything back from them. Is that a commitment that will obligate the new government coming in, or is it just a personal commitment by this Minister?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I do not know how it can obligate the new government coming in. There is no written contract with anyone.

Mrs. Firth: I want to mention about three points that I think are outstanding issues that we have to have decisions on, and probably within a short time.

The first one is the rate stabilizing fund that probably has a seven to 10 year commitment. The Minister has indicated that decision has to be made by December. The other decision that has to be made and is more pressing, I guess, is the management agreement. That will be coming up sooner and will have to be finalized. Then there is the capital plan hearing. Those are three outstanding issues that have to be dealt with with the Yukon Development Corporation and the Yukon Energy Corporation in the near future.

I had indicated to the Minister that I was going to be prepared to make some recommendations to the government about the Crown corporations. The Ministers can take those recommendations for whatever they want. If they are not interested in them, it will be on the record. Perhaps a new government will be interested in the observations and recommendations that I have made.

The first one is with respect to the YDC/YEC. I think they should be merged into one Crown corporation with accountability to the public, and I stress the fact that it should be considered a Crown corporation. As I said earlier to the Minister, it would probably be better to call it the Energy Corporation, since development does not really apply any more if it is only going to deal with energy-related matters. I think there should be clear corporate policies and priorities and I would like to see them developed in part through some kind of public consultation process. I think the policies would then serve to direct the actions of the government and the staff at the corporations and the corporation's board of directors.

I think it is very important that the Yukon Energy Corporation become in some way accountable to the Legislature. It is a tool of public policy and is owned by the people of the Yukon Territory. The Yukon Energy Corporation itself is the owner of many of the electrical-generating facilities and should be more active in its role as the owner, and therefore supervisor, of the delivery of electrical service to the people of the Yukon. The Yukon Energy Corporation should be independent of the Yukon Electrical Company Ltd. when determining its role on its polices.

I think the Yukon Energy Corporation corporate goals should be very different from the Yukon Electrical Company Ltd. corporate goals.

In the Auditor General's report on the management contract between the Yukon Energy Corporation and the Yukon Electrical Company Ltd., it is implied that the Yukon Electrical Company Ltd. was never intended to be unaccountable and at arm's length from the government to such an extent it would become unaccountable. That was reinforced by their following up with discussions with federal government officials who had been involved in the transfer of the Northern Canada Power Commission.

The corporation should clearly define its role in the energy field and government should ensure there is no, or minimal, overlap between the roles of the Yukon Energy Corporation, the Yukon Electrical Company Ltd., the Executive Council Office and the Department of Economic Development, particularly when it comes to the energy policy and oil and gas initiatives.

The Yukon Energy Corporation role in the future development of coal, oil and gas, uranium or other energy sources should be clearly defined. The outstanding question is if the return on equity of the Yukon Energy Corporation should be reduced.

The expenditure of the revenues of the Yukon Energy Corporation over and above those required by the corporation to continue its role as a utility delivering electrical energy for which it is accountable to the Yukon Utilities Board must be subject to public scrutiny and debate.

Chair: Are we prepared to go line by line at this time?

We will go line by line.

On Gross Advances

Gross Advances in the amount of $1.00 agreed to

On Less Internal Recovery

Less Internal Recovery in the amount of $1.00 agreed to

Operation and Maintenance Expenditures for Yukon Development Corporation in the amount of $1.00 agreed to

Yukon Development Corporation agreed to

Yukon Housing Corporation

Chair: Is there any general debate?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: I do not have much in the way of introductory remarks. There was a technical briefing. Dozens of questions came out of that, and we debated the Yukon Housing Corporation for three days during the supplementary estimate debate and covered most line items, programs and departments.

The Yukon Housing Corporation is really carrying on business as usual this year. There have not been any recommendations for major changes in programming from either the Territorial Association of Housing Advisory Boards or the Housing Industry Advisory Group or, to me, from the Yukon Housing Corporation Board itself.

The only new program that we have entered into was announced by me in a ministerial statement. It is the partnership with the city to improve the health and safety of accessory suites in the City of Whitehorse. As we talked about in great detail, the mobile-home survey is being done. It is hoped that this will give us some concrete information that we can use to deal with that problem. Until we have that information, there is nothing in the budget for 1996-97 that will deal with that.

The joint program with the city for accessory suites will come out of the rental suites program in the capital budget. When we get to that line item, if there are any questions on that, I can answer them at that time.

Ms. Commodore: One of the questions I was going to ask him is with regard to the new program - the accessory suite initiative - because we already have the rental suites program, as the Minister had indicated.

My question was with regard to whether or not we now have two programs, or do we have one program that is entitled "rental suites" and another entitled "accessory suite initiative"? The Minister said that at least the new one was coming out of that budget.

Hon. Mr. Nordling: There will be the rental suite program, but now with two parts to it as the Member pointed out. We thought it would fit well there.

The condition for rental suite support is that there be a three-percent vacancy rate in the marketplace - and it is now lower than that - so we do not expect much uptake on the rental suite program. We expect that approximately half of that will be used for the upgrading of accessory suites; at least we hope there will be that uptake because of the health and safety concerns.

Ms. Commodore: I support the program with the health and safety attachment to it, because I think that is very important. I know for a fact that I have been in some places where I would be afraid to live because of the safety aspect.

I have never been sure whether or not there was something in place that would require these safety precautions be in place so that people can feel comfortable in their housing. I do not know if all of the suites that I have walked into over the 14 years when I have been knocking on doors are known by whomever is supposed to have that information.

While this is a good thing, I still wonder, despite what the Minister has said, whether or not it is a good idea for us to be going into a program and building new suites in competition with people who already have existing suites available for rent.

I know there are a lot of rental suites on the market right now, and people who are looking for a place to stay are having no problem finding housing. I know I asked this question when the rental suite program was introduced. I do not think I have seen a great need for building new suites since that time. Does the Minister think the corporation will be competing with existing rental suites in the private sector? Does he think this could be a problem?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: No. We do not see the great need. We do not think that there will be a large uptake on the building of new suites. We think that this program will be used to upgrade existing suites. There will not be any new suites in the City of Whitehorse; we expect the existing suites will be safer.

Ms. Commodore: I talked about it in the supplementary budget, but I still think that low-cost rental units for poor people is a big issue. I think it is still important. The Minister has indicated that the government has no plans in the future at least to build new complexes for those people who cannot afford to pay a top rate for a suite. He has also indicated that he will not even think about it unless it is recommended to him by someone.

I would like to ask him whether or not there is any plan for the department to take that initiative. The Minister cannot just sit back and wait for someone to tell him that this is what should be done.

Hon. Mr. Nordling: As the Member said, we have talked about it quite a bit. One of the problems is that a lot of the social housing units that were built were cost shared with the federal government. The federal government provided the majority of the funding for them. The federal government has withdrawn the money, so it is not available. We would have to take on the project ourselves.

Ms. Commodore: It is a known fact that the Government Leader's wife has interests in housing units in Whitehorse and that she is being subsidized, or something, for some of those units. I cannot remember the exact amount.

Can the Minister tell me whether or not there are other rental units in town that have the same kind of arrangement with the government to help pay for or subsidize some rental units such as Carol Pettigrew has?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: Neither Carol Pettigrew nor Rocking Star Holdings have any tenants in the building they own that are rent supplements. There were several tenants, I believe, in their building who received a rent supplement. There is that program and there are rent supplements, but there are none in the Rocking Star Holdings building.

Ms. Commodore: There were instances in the past where individuals were being subsidized by the government so they could pay their rent, and that was going into the units they owned. Are there other buildings such as those where the tenants are receiving the same assistance?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: Yes, there are. We believe there are about 60 people receiving that subsidy, or rent supplement, in the Yukon.

Ms. Commodore: So we have all these low-rent units right across the territory. We have anywhere from 60 to 100 people on the waiting list, who have applied for low-rent units, plus we have about 60 other people living in ordinary accommodation but being subsidized for their rent.

Hon. Mr. Nordling: Yes, that is fairly accurate.

Ms. Commodore: The Minister is not looking at the possibility of doing anything more in the near future. He has already indicated that the federal government cancelled its funding and, therefore, the territorial government has cancelled its funding, but it is still in housing and involved in other programs that are available, using its own money. Why can that not happen with low-cost housing units for poor people?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: That could happen, but we do not have any plans at the present time to do that. We feel that the programs already in place will meet the need at the present time.

Ms. Commodore: I do not have a lot more questions because, as the Minister indicated, we discussed almost everything I am still interested in today. Has the Minister come up with any new policies for pets?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: The meeting to discuss that is May 16. All the Housing Advisory Board representatives will meet May 16 to make recommendations, which will then come to the Yukon Housing Corporation Board.

Ms. Commodore: Does the Minister have any idea what some of those options might be? Someone must have talked to him about it prior to this meeting.

Hon. Mr. Nordling: My understanding is every option was looked at, every local board has gone through their experiences with pets and will come forward with recommendations. We spent a long time discussing it with Mr. Penikett, who was quite interested in this. That was passed on, and all the options were considered. The local boards will bring suggestions, and there will then be a decision made as to what level there will be between the strict no-pet policy and no restriction.

My expectation is it will fall somewhere in between.

Ms. Moorcroft: It is somewhat troubling that we raise these concerns about policies and, one or two years later, there is still to be a meeting scheduled next month, when there have been long breaks and sessions in between, and still no resolution.

There is one issue I would like to follow up on with the Minister. He knows what it is, because I gave him notice during the supplementary estimates debate, and I also spoke to the Government House Leader about it a couple of days ago.

With respect to the tenant absence policy, I had made the case that the language was very heavy-handed, demanding that tenants of Whitehorse Housing seek prior written approval before they are absent for more than 30 days.

The Minister's answer was that it did not violate the Human Rights Act. I had asked him to follow up on whether or not it was, in fact, consistent with the Landlord and Tenant Act.

Under that act, the landlord has a responsibility not to interfere unreasonably with the enjoyment of the rented premises. The act also states that the rules under a tenancy agreement must be applied to all tenants in a fair manner. Does the Minister think that it is reasonable for a family occupying social housing to have more restrictive rules than tenants who are renting privately?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: I am not sure, but I do not think so. I do not know what restrictions there are when renting from a private individual. Sometimes there are a lot more restrictions.

The Member did give notice that she would ask about this and I have a note from the Government House Leader. I have the note in front of me, and I am not really clear - from what is written here - what the Member is after. I would appreciate it if it could be explained a little more clearly - if there is a specific incident, person or case involved. I know of several cases where people have given short notice or have moved unexpectedly and have been charged while the housing authority was looking for a new tenant. But I do not understand what the Member means or what the Government House Leader means in his note to me.

Ms. Moorcroft: I hope I am not going to have to go through this in detail and that the Minister can recall it and pick up on it.

The tenant absence policy for Whitehorse Housing Authority reads something to the effect that tenants have to seek prior written approval before they are absent for more than 30 days. The Minister responded to my concerns by saying that this was simply something to ensure that the Whitehorse Housing Authority knew about it so that, if the place was going to be vacant, they could keep an eye on it for security reasons.

I put forward the position that the language should be changed to make it clear that it was notification the Whitehorse Housing Authority was seeking, if the purpose was to make sure that security was not breached, rather than requiring permission. A tenant should not have to require permission to be absent. As long as they are paying their rent, they should have the same ability that tenants in the private market have to not have unreasonable interference in their lives. Has the housing policy been amended to clearly indicate that notification may be required, but not permission?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: I did discuss that with the Housing Corporation, and it had its reasons, as the Member said. The reason was for protection of the unit so that, if a tenant was away longer than 30 days, no harm would come to it. The second reason was that if tenants were going to be away for more than 30 days, there were other people on the waiting list who perhaps could use the accommodation. The requirement is in place because the tenants are receiving a benefit or a subsidy. They are not paying a full rent, as they would be paying in a private situation that would entitle them to simply hold the unit if they could afford it. Here, they are benefiting by having that unit. It is not fair to have 60 or 70 people on a waiting list and someone holding a unit for more than a month. If they can afford to pay the rent and hold the unit for more than that time, then maybe they should be in private accommodation and we should get someone on the waiting list into that accommodation.

Ms. Moorcroft: It seems then that the Minister is indicating that the policy has not been changed - that the government supports the proposition that, if a family is in social housing, then it does not have the same rights as someone renting privately, so he supports this restrictive rule and the heavy-handed language in the policy. I do not see any point in continuing to urge the Minister to change that, because that seems impossible, so I will just register that it does not seem fair and that I am really disappointed that the policy has not been changed.

Hon. Mr. Nordling: What I am saying as the Minister is that I do not think it is a serious enough problem to intervene with the Yukon Housing Corporation, the Whitehorse Housing Authority, local boards or the two advisory boards and to impose my will on them to change it. I will pass on the Member's concerns.

Mr. Harding: I have had numerous discussions in this session with the Minister about these issues. They involve Faro Real Estate and what many petitioners felt were unauthorized rent increases, as well as the situation surrounding the non-competition clause and the old mortgage agreement. They are presently before the court, as I understand it.

The Chateau Jomini, as the Minister is aware, is under pressure for construction and some kind of early resolution so that we can encourage some investors for this construction season. Can he tell me the status of the court case?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: The Yukon Housing Corporation has not filed its answer and counter-petition yet. It is waiting for the president of the Yukon Housing Corporation to sign his affidavit to go with the petition. That has not been done yet. The president is gone right now and probably will not be back until next week. It will be another week before the answering counter-petition is filed. There is no court date yet.

Mr. Harding: Is there anyone in his stead who could sign for it?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: I do not think there is. I will check on it, but I think it is the president's affidavit that is required.

Mr. Harding: I would really like to be able to give my constituents some answers about when the court date is expected and I will tell you why.

First of all, there is the whole issue of the Chateau Jomini and the construction season.

The other issue is the major housing crunch in Faro right now to the point where Anvil Range, through an agreement with Faro Real Estate, is subsidizing a significant portion of the units in Faro. I believe it is around 380 units.

Anvil Range is running out of housing for their employees and they have the right to evict people if they so wish, to create space for their own employees, leaving no alternate housing for people.

The last I heard, there were 72 units with non-Anvil Range employees residing in them. If the company commences action to try and free up units that they are subsidizing so that their employees can have places to live, it will cause a very large blow-up, and it will be very disruptive for some people. I know the company does not want to do this, but it is the company's view that it is paying for the units and it wants to make more housing available.

These individuals have no place to go. Some of the individuals work for contracting companies in town, and many of them are businesspeople. We have a major housing problem in Faro.

I would like to see the Yukon Housing Corporation and the Department of Community and Transportation Services work together once this non-competition issue is satisfied in the mortgage agreement, to free up lots and work out some kind of an arrangement, perhaps with private sector people and the contracting industry. The whole rental rate structure in Faro needs to be addressed to see if the housing crunch can be alleviated.

One must keep in mind that we are also trying to attract mining companies like Cominco and Westmin Resources to use Faro as a base community in the area, and to try and expand and diversify the base and the economy with more than one mine.

I would appreciate it if the Minister could begin thinking about the housing shortage in Faro and also what it means to us to have this non-competition issue settled so that we can start to move ahead in developing new lots and expanding.

Hon. Mr. Nordling: Yes, we have noted the Member's concerns and will look into it right away. I am amazed that Faro Real Estate would still be enforcing that with respect to the Town of Faro and Chateau Jomini. Obviously they are not about to solve the housing crunch, of which they are a big part.

Ms. Moorcroft: The Minister announced this week a new program to help people with constructing accessory suites in their homes. I would like to ask the Minister whether there has been any progress on the program the Minister was hoping to bring forward for home completion.

Hon. Mr. Nordling: Just to correct the record in case there is any misunderstanding, the new program is not to construct accessory suites. The new program is to repair existing accessory suites.

With respect to the home completion program, I have written to the housing board and asked it to make it a priority. It will be considered at its May 3 and 4 board meeting and we hope to have a decision on it then.

Mrs. Firth: I have several questions and follow-up issues that I would like to proceed with this evening. I would like to start by going through a letter I sent to the Minister requesting information to see if we are in agreement with respect to what information has been provided to me and what is still outstanding. I am referring to a letter of March 18 to the Minister regarding the budget briefing wherein I made a list of some 21 requests. I have still not received the item number 5 report that was prepared on the restructuring of the Housing Corporation. If I could get a commitment from the Minister to get that, I would appreciate it.

I was also looking for item number 13. The information on the home completion program was provided to one of the other Members. I got a letter from that Member, so that question has been answered.

I also asked for the detailed breakdown of the travel budget, including actual travel plans. I had received some information about travel that I will follow up with the Minister later. I may ask for some more information.

I was looking for information on all the programs administered by the Yukon Housing Corporation that are available to the public. I was looking for a package so I could have some idea of what information is available to people who are requesting programs or want to request programs through the Yukon Housing Corporation. I am assuming that the packages would be similar to the handout the Minister provided to us when he made his announcement on this accessory suite initiative. It is difficult to go around this building and find all of the handouts available to the public when it comes to Yukon Housing Corporation programs.

I would like a better idea of how readily available these programs are and how well-advertised they are. I see the advertisements in the newspapers for the programs, but I was interested in the packages that the corporation hands out. Can the Minister give me some commitment as to when I could be provided with that information?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: With respect to the report that was prepared on restructuring, the note that I have was that it was complete and tabled on March 19. If the Member did not get it, I will get it to her. My understanding is that it was provided on March 19.

Mrs. Firth: Was it tabled as a legislative return?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: No. It was provided, I thought, to the Member for Riverdale South, as well as to the Yukon Housing Corporation and Mr. Cable.

We will deliver the information on all the programs to the Member tomorrow - the whole works.

Mrs. Firth: I will double-check it, but my researcher and I went through all the blue pages and yellow pages that we were given to us. I do not recall seeing it. I have read through all the information, incidentally, that was provided. If I have it, I will let the Minister know. If not, I would appreciate him providing it for me. It might just have been left out of my package or something.

I want to begin by following up on one of my pet peeves, the VISA cards. My concern was the control system that was in place for the credit cards. The Minister has just provided me today with a letter listing what the control process is.

The first step on the Minister's statement is that, on a monthly basis, each individual will be responsible for ensuring that all charges on the VISA statement are legitimate business expenses and that any unauthorized charges are reported to the VISA people so that they are not being billed for someone else's charges.

The question I have is this: who makes the determination that it is a legitimate business expense, and who checks up on that? Is it an honour system - once the employee initials it, does the Department of Finance simply assume that it has been checked? Does anyone check it or cross-reference it with the travel directives? How does that work?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: My understanding is that it is a three-step process. The employee verifies it with the supervisor, and then the financial officer does the final check, so that the account gets paid.

Mrs. Firth: When I got the credit card statements I had requested - I would have preferred to get more, but I was only given a select few - I called the hotels, and the hotels provided me with a printout of the person's stay at the hotel. It printed out everything. I hope all government employees take note of this - one can indicate that one is an MLA checking up on credit card use for government employees and they will provide a printout of the whole hotel bill.

When the VISA card comes in, all it has on it is the total. Is the statement from the hotel also attached to the travel claim? Is it gone over and verified by the employee? This is really where the check is for what is or is not a legitimate expense.

Hon. Mr. Nordling: My understanding is that the same procedure is used for those credit cards, as we do ourselves. The credit card with the total on it is stapled to the hotel receipt with the personal items accounted for on the statement from the hotel.

Mrs. Firth: So, the employee goes through the hotel list and identifies which expenses would not be considered to be a business expense, such as movies, guest parking, et cetera. I know that there is a definition in the travel directives that indicates what is and is not a business expense; how many days one has to be away before getting one's laundry paid for, and so on.

The supervisor and the employee sit down and they go through it and the employee initials it. Is that correct?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: Yes, my understanding is that they do not sit down together and go through it; it is submitted to the supervisor, who reviews it.

Mrs. Firth: The employee makes a note of what should be deducted, or what they want to pay for themselves, what is not considered a business expense, such as movies. The Minister indicated that movies were not paid for and that people had to pay for those themselves. Do they make a note on the statement? Do they make a financial accounting of it? Do they submit a cheque for the items that are not covered under the travel directives?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: No, my understanding is that they would pay for that unless there is money coming to them, because they do a complete travel-expense claim. Besides the charges for the hotel, for example, they get their meal charges. If there was extra on the hotel, for example, for a movie, it would be offset against the money that they would have coming, for example, for meal expenses, because it would be part of a travel-expense claim, such as any other government employee fills out.

Mrs. Firth: I imagine that the times an employee would actually have to submit an additional cheque would be seldom, or never. Would it be fair to say that?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: Yes, it would be fair to say seldom.

Mrs. Firth: I find that an interesting observation. I know it does not just apply to Housing Corporation employees; I think it probably applies throughout government.

Are the ordinary travel forms that are filled out, the requests for holidays, for example, filled out to get reimbursement as well? I think it is under authorization for leave originally and then it has an itemized accounting of all the expenses and so on. Is that signed by the supervisor?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: Yes, the credit card slip and the detailed hotel bill are attached to the travel claim, so the travel expense claim is one document when it is finished. The expenses are detailed on the front to calculate what is owing to the employee or, if they have had an advance, what is owed back.

Mrs. Firth: Are all of those files kept within the Housing Corporation? Are they kept in, say, the Department of Finance? Under what categories does the corporation file them?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: I am not sure how they are filed. I can check on that and get back to the Member. My understanding is that the corporation keeps them.

Mrs. Firth: I wanted to try to find out why it was so difficult to get the VISA printouts for me. The Minister indicated that he was not satisfied either with the length of time it took to present them, so I thought it would be interesting to know what kind of filing system the corporation has and why they were not easily accessible. I would appreciate receiving that information.

Do the individuals who have credit cards make any other kinds of purchases with their VISA cards for the Housing Corporation?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: The vast majority of the credit card purchases are for travel expenses. There are occasions where they are used as a local purchase order. Something might be purchased for the corporation with the credit card.

Mrs. Firth: Could the Minister give me some examples of what kind of purchases would be made?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: One example would be a book for use by the corporation. For example, a computer book or manual that was needed would be purchased on the credit card and brought to the corporation offices.

Mrs. Firth: In order for one of the individuals to make a charge on the credit card - while the president and the vice-president do not need anyone's authorization to do this - who do they receive authorization from to make this kind of purchase?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: I think it depends on their signing authority. I do not know which employees would be able to sign for what.

Mrs. Firth: Does the Minister know what the signing authority levels are for the different individuals who have credit cards? The Minister is indicating that he does not know.

Could I have that information so I know what kind of spending authorities have been designated to the employees who have the credit cards? The Minister is nodding his head indicating that I can have that information.

Are the credit card internal procedures and controls considered a policy of the corporation? These procedures and controls have been given to me on two pieces of paper headed "Yukon Housing Corporation Credit Card Procedures - Internal Procedures Controls". Is this an official document or is this something that has been made up in response to my request?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: No, I do not believe the paper was made up in response to the Member's request. The board passed a credit card policy and there were regulations made pursuant to that policy and these are the regulations.

Mrs. Firth: I did not mean the paper was made up in the sense that it is false information. I wanted to know if the information was compiled for me and that it was compiled from real information - do not get paranoid.

The reason I am asking about this is because it does not say regulations on it or anything. It is a piece of paper with a title that I have already read out. Is this credit card policy included in the policy manual? Why is this not in the form that other regulations are in?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: I am not sure why it was not simply photocopied and attached. It was typed from the regulations in response to the Member and attached to the letter. I do not know why it was redone rather than retyped. Maybe it was clearer than a photocopy. I do not know.

Mrs. Firth: Perhaps I can just get the copy of the policy. The whole policy manual from the corporation would probably be interesting to read. However, if the corporation could just pull this particular policy and the regulations that accompany it out of its manual tomorrow and send it to my office, I would appreciate it. Is that possible?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: Yes. I can ask the corporation to do that. I thought I had sent the Member a copy of the credit card policy attached to another letter in late February or early March. I seem to remember having sent the policy. I will check and get a copy of the policy and regulations out of the book.

Mrs. Firth: I think it was another explanatory letter. I do not think it was the actual policy. I may stand to be corrected on that. It could have been the actual policy, but I will wait to see what the Minister sends me, and I will also get the regulations in the regulation form.

The corporation is going to continue the practice of the use of credit cards according to the Minister in our previous debates. I want to ask the Minister if he has given any direction to the department to do any kind of evaluation or regular check to ensure that the policies are being followed, so that his department does not get another criticism from the Auditor General.

Hon. Mr. Nordling: My understanding is that this work is being done. I guess we will see what the Auditor General has to say at the end of this year about the use of credit cards.

Mrs. Firth: Can the Minister tell me exactly what has been done? Is it just to follow this policy, or is there someone specifically designated to keep an eye on this kind of thing?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: It is being monitored by the director of Finance. We do not know if they have been assigned specifically to check credit cards and audit them. I would expect that is being done, but I will ask if, in response to the Auditor General's concern and the Member's question, there is any closer scrutiny of each account that is being presented.

Mrs. Firth: I found the form that I wanted to bring up with the Minister. It is called the "travel authorization and claim form." Does the Minister sign all these forms when they are completed and go to the Department of Finance for repayment?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: No. I believe the only ones I have ever signed were for the president.

Mrs. Firth: Then the president would sign for the vice-president, and the vice-president would sign for the other staff, or whomever the reporting authority is. The Minister is nodding his head, indicating "yes".

This is a very interesting exercise. I would recommend it to other MLAs.

I have a question that I would ask just out of curiosity, but I will leave it for now.

I have some questions about some of the information provided to me. The first one is about the Yukon Housing Corporation personnel costs. This was a page prepared on March 26, 1996, which has the salaries, merit increases, and so on, from the blue-page document.

There is $10,000 listed under managers' bonuses, with a note at the bottom that lists cash bonuses for 1994-95 and 1995-96. Are these two different bonuses?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: If I am wrong, I will correct it for the Member as soon as we check it. Our understanding is that the managers' bonus line is the Yukon bonus and the cash bonus is based upon performance, over and above salary and Yukon bonus. I do not have the sheet the Member is referring to in front of me.

Mrs. Firth: I think the Minister will have to correct that. On this sheet, it also lists Yukon bonuses. This is the information I had asked for on the complete breakdown of personnel costs. In the budget, all we have is personnel costs for $2,756,197. I wanted to know what that was for.

The first one is salaries, $2.2 million; the next is merit increases, for $18,500; then managers' bonuses for $10,000; then overtime for $62,000; extra time, community managers, for $20,000; Yukon bonus, $101,978; community allowances, $15,000; and benefits, $325,067.

I was curious about what the $10,000 for managers' bonuses was - these are the projected costs for 1996-97 - and there is a note below that says that the actual costs of merit increases for 1994-95 was $27,306; 1995-96 was $27,000; cash bonuses were $4,625 for 1994-95 and $3,599 for 1995-96. I want to know if these bonuses were separate and if the managers got a different kind of bonus, compared to the cash bonuses. It is difficult to determine exactly what the bonus system is within the corporation.

Hon. Mr. Nordling: I do not have that information, but I will get an explanation of it and bring it back for the Member.

Mrs. Firth: We did phone the corporation and ask about it, but we never heard back. We did call some time ago, actually. My researcher made an inquiry about it. I do not want to get anyone into trouble, but we did inquire - just so that the Minister knows that I am not trying to ambush him with a trick question.

I would appreciate receiving an explanation of that. Perhaps the Minister can give me an idea - there is a system within government where employees can get cash bonuses. Perhaps I am drawing the conclusion wrongly, but it seems to me that might be what the managers' bonus line for $10,000 is, because we have covered merit increases, overtime, the Yukon bonus, benefits and everything else.

How is that determination made within the corporation?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: It is the same policy as throughout the government. Managers are entitled to merit increase. There can also be cash bonuses for recognition of service.

Mrs. Firth: How is recognition of service determined? Can the Minister tell us who makes that determination and what it is based on? I know it does not happen automatically.

Hon. Mr. Nordling: Yes, it is part of the performance evaluation process. Within the corporation it is done by the president. For the president it is done by the Government Leader and the Minister responsible.

Mrs. Firth: Can people get merit increases as well as bonuses?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: Yes, they can.

Mrs. Firth: I would like to know if the Minister would be prepared to give me a breakdown of the manager bonus line? I know I am going to get an argument about it being personal information, et cetera, et cetera. It is a $10,000 expenditure. I do not have to know the individuals' names, but I think I could at least know how many managers there were and some kind of idea of what the bonus breakdown was so that we could figure out whether or not this is going to one person or if it is going to five people or what that $10,000 breakdown represents.

Hon. Mr. Nordling: I will see what I can get for the Member without breaching any confidence or confidentiality.

I have a copy of the report here on the restructuring of the Yukon Housing Corporation. I will photocopy it during the break and send a copy over to the Member.

Chair: Order. We will take a brief recess at this time.

Recess

Chair: I will call Committee of the Whole to order.

Mrs. Firth: I am looking at the report on the restructuring of the Yukon Housing Corporation. When does the corporation anticipate completion of the restructuring project? I know when we asked questions previously there were still some outstanding issues to be dealt with. I raised the concern about the restructured organizational chart, or entitlements or whatever. They have still not been given to the position control at the Public Service Commission because the printout there is still in the old structure.

Can the Minister tell me when the corporation anticipates having it all completed and implemented?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: To a certain extent, it is in the hands of the Public Service Commission. A number of job descriptions and reclassifications are with it. Apparently the Public Service Commission has quite a backlog. As Minister of Government Services, I know that because, in Government Services, we are waiting on Public Service Commission and have quite a number of people acting in positions.

I do not think there is a fixed date. They are working toward it with the Public Service Commission.

Mrs. Firth: I went through the position descriptions and job descriptions that were provided to me in the package of information. Are there any jobs that are presently in place that will no longer exist after the restructuring?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: There may be some different titles and somewhat different functions in some of the jobs, but there will not be a net reduction in the number of positions or an increase in the number of positions at the corporation.

Mrs. Firth: There will not be a decrease and no one will be restructured out of a job with this process - is that correct?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: No, not that we are aware of. There should not be any reduction in the total staff.

Mrs. Firth: I may have some more questions about the restructuring after I have read the document, but I will correspond with the Minister if I do.

I want to move to the travel budget for 1996-97. I do not know if the Minister has a copy of the budget that was provided for me in the package with the blue pages. The budget indicates travel for the Executive Council Office is $2,000; technical services, $3,000; direct lending programs, $30,000; program administration, $15,280; Whitehorse Housing Authority, $9,720; and out-of-territory travel, $50,000. I wonder if I could get a more detailed breakdown of this. What does the corporation mean by out-of-territory travel for $50,000? Is it just a budget that is set, they travel until the money is used up and then do not travel any more? Is the $50,000 all identified for certain trips?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: There is an estimate based on the travel that will be needed. The vast majority of the travel will be to meet with the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation and other housing corporations to discuss joint-funded programs and conferences. I can provide the Member with a breakdown of how much is estimated for those meetings and where and when they are. Most of them are set in advance.

Mrs. Firth: There is a note about some federal/territorial/provincial negotiations of new housing initiatives and that additional money was budgeted for out-of-territory travel to cover the cost of the negotiations. I would appreciate a more defined breakdown. Even in the other items, the travel for direct-lending programs is $30,000. I would be interested in having more detail about all of the travel items in the information that the Minister has given me.

Hon. Mr. Nordling: Yes, I can get a breakdown of that for the Member.

Mrs. Firth: The next question I have is just one quick question about the ministerial statement on the new program that was announced about the accessory suite initiative. The Minister indicated that it is going to come under the rental suites program. This is the program where people can borrow up to $25,000 at a low interest rate, pay it back at a lower interest rate than the current five-year mortgage interest rate and pay it back over 10 years. Has the corporation identified a specific amount of money for this particular initiative, and if so, how much?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: No, it has not identified a specific amount.

Mrs. Firth: Is it feasible that the whole $500,000 could be used up by this particular program?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: It is theoretically possible, but I think it is unlikely. As I said in my opening remarks, the estimate is closer to $200,000 or $250,000 from discussions with the city. We do not know if there will be even that much uptake. We will see what the response is over the next several months.

Mrs. Firth: It is a similar program to what is already in place. I am concerned about the corporation continuing to add more programs. It is getting bigger and bigger - I would hate to say that an empire is being built, but I am starting to draw that conclusion.

Speaking of which, another program that the corporation has taken over from Community and Transportation Services is the lands portfolio. From the list of developed, but vacant, land in the Yukon Housing Corporation portfolio, it appears that the government is now making loans for the purchase of land. Is that correct? If so, when was that started, and why?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: I am not sure what the Member is talking about.

Mrs. Firth: We got a copy of the lands portfolio, which is now under the jurisdiction of the Yukon Housing Corporation. On that lands portfolio, there are the locations of lots; it has an agreement; it has a term on it - five-year or 10-year terms; there is an interest rate attached to it, ranging anywhere from nine percent to 9.75 percent, and it tells how much of the cost of the lot has been paid off and how much is still owing. Perhaps the Minister could tell me what the lands portfolio is all about - what activity the Yukon Housing Corporation is involved in with respect to the lands portfolio.

Hon. Mr. Nordling: That is the purchase of lots that were developed by Community and Transportation Services. It is either through lottery or over the counter, and the Housing Corporation simply collects the money owing for the lots.

Mrs. Firth: Are they going to be taking over the lots prior to them being purchased, or is Community and Transportation Services going to continue to transfer lots that have been sold to the Housing Corporation?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: That was talked about. When Community and Transportation Services gave Yukon Housing Corporation the collection of the lots once they were sold, that was called phase 1. Phase 2 was that Community and Transportation Services would transfer to the Housing Corporation the lots or the subdivision right after development and the Housing Corporation would take over the sale of the lots. But phase 2 is not in the immediate future; there is no movement to do that right away. I do not see phase 2 being implemented for some time.

Mrs. Firth: That is good to hear. I do not know if I would be in favour of it being implemented at all, but that is just my personal opinion.

I have a question about the principal amounts outstanding on all of the programs, which now totals about $20 million on mortgages.

I am concerned about the long-term debt of the corporation and how it is increasing. I have raised this issue with the Minister before about how the debt has increased from $24.6 million in 1992 to almost $40 million. Does this cause the Minister any concern?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: It does not cause the Minister great concern, because there is equity to repay the loans. I do not see this as a $40-million exposure for the corporation, but I do understand the Member's point that it could continue to grow and grow until the Yukon Housing Corporation becomes the size of a bank, or as the Member was saying, some sort of empire.

I do not see that happening with the programs that are in place now. Loans are paid off and new loans are issued.

Mrs. Firth: I am concerned about that, because I think for the population size that it is serving, it has grown more than enough. I certainly do not want to see it grow any more. In fact, I might like to see it go the other way. Is there a certain time when they say that it is enough? Is there a plan in place? Who is monitoring this, and at whose discretion does it continue to grow? When does someone stand up and say that it has grown enough and that it is time to put a cap on it? I do not want the Yukon Housing Corporation to become the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation of the Yukon. I want to know what the plans are for the future.

Hon. Mr. Nordling: It depends on the condition of the housing stock in the Yukon. We have housing stock that is not nearly in the top ranking in Canada. I am often told by officials that we have some of the worst stock. However, we have seen a decline to a certain extent in the uptake of the programs. That was discussed in some detail during the supplementaries, when money was returned in those programs.

We have undertaken an advertising campaign now to see how much uptake there will be for the programs. I think this fall will be a good indicator of how much demand there is. The people who were looking for assistance for home ownership or to repair their homes have done it. As the stock improves, and people have taken advantage of the programs, there will be a decrease rather than an increase.

A good example is the Yukon Housing Corporation itself. There was quite an aggressive program undertaken over the past years to fix up the social housing units. That project was completed last year. When we get into the line items, we will see that the budget last year was fairly low for that. We essentially took the year off, and now there are a few more repairs needed, so it has climbed again. Our stock is in good shape, and we hope that will happen throughout the Yukon.

Mrs. Firth: I guess we will just have to follow up to see what happens.

I want to ask the Minister one final question about the corporation and its future. I know the Minister knows the general reputation of the Yukon Housing Corporation on the street is not good. This is not my fault; I did not create this reputation or image. I am raising these questions because people have come to me with concerns and have asked me to raise questions about them.

I get complaints from the public; I get complaints from contractors; I get complaints from home builders. Does the Minister agree or disagree with that statement? People complain to me that they are concerned about the way people are dealt with, about the heavy-handedness and the perception of being treated unfairly. People make comments. I have had people tell me they have heard comments about me within the Yukon Housing Corporation, about how someone was going to fix my cart. I do not think my cart is fixed yet, but one day it may be. I do not think anything is wrong with my cart.

I would like some indication from the Minister as to whether or not he even perceives this to be a problem. Is there even any point in my discussing it with him? Does he have any plans to try to encourage the corporation to enhance or improve its reputation, or perhaps provide a more positive influence in the community instead of the negative commentary that I continue to hear. This is not something that has just developed over the last two months or six months or whatever; it has been there for a while now.

Hon. Mr. Nordling: Yes, the Member is fairly accurate in her assessment. The Housing Corporation, for some reason - and when I tried to find out the reason I discovered there were many reasons - does not have a good reputation. That is something the Housing Corporation and even the board of directors are concerned about and that is why housing advisory boards are going to be meeting with the industry to try and rectify it. When we try and get a grasp of it, it seems that the problem has been replaced with another problem - whether it is the real estate agents who are upset with the Housing Corporation; for a time that problem goes away and then it is the home builders who are upset because we are building too much social housing and at other times because we are not building it. Then it could be another group that thinks we should be more involved.

The reputation is there. It is a tough one.

Mrs. Firth: If I may be so bold as to make a few recommendations, a lot of the corporation's problems are brought on by the corporation itself. From the comments I have heard and the concerns that have been brought to my attention, I think the management style - and I know that does not just fall on one person's shoulders, but people have to be held accountable - has been a subject of concern and the way in which employees treat clients and contractors and the closeness of the corporation employees. If they can ostracize one employee within the corporation, I think it is indicative that there is an elitism in the corporation among the employees.

The corporation has to look internally before it looks externally for the problem. It would certainly be my recommendation that it does that. I hope that the Minister would be supportive of that direction. I am giving it in a constructive sense, rather than a critical one. I think there are many problems there and that it has created problems for the corporation in the community. I do not think that it is a healthy situation at all.

Hon. Mr. Nordling: I do not have much to add, except to say that I know that the employees as a group are sensitive to what the Member is saying and do not want that reputation. They are concerned about it and they do feel personally responsible. I agree that there should not be elitism there. My impression is there is no elitism. From what I have seen when I deal with them, the employees look as if they work fairly well together. A group ostracizing one employee is a problem that I think is being dealt with through the grievance procedure at the present time.

Mrs. Firth: I have one last comment to make, and it is a cautionary note for the Minister.

The Minister should not judge the reaction of employees to himself as the total picture. I can appreciate that the Minister gets a much different reaction from employees - I would probably get a pretty cool reception if I walked into the Yukon Housing Corporation, and I do not have any problem with that. I have a job to do and I am doing it.

I am talking about people who have to work with this organization, and people whose livelihoods are dependent upon working with this organization. Obviously, they are not being given the same reception that I or the Minister would receive. I think the Minister has indicated that he can appreciate what I am saying. If we are going to have a friendly organization that runs smoothly and is an asset to the community, then I think something has to be done.

Mr. Cable: I have a suggestion about how the corporation can improve its image, at least in part, it can be more cooperative with the elected representatives with this House.

On March 18, 1996, during the supplementary debate, I asked the Minister and the Yukon Housing Corporation if I could be provided - for the budget debate - with an analysis of what is going on in other jurisdictions with respect to the rights of employees to work in the housing industry after hours. I also asked the Minister and the Yukon Housing Corporation to provide me with information about how the public housing function was being handled in other jurisdictions. I had heard that the corporations were either being wound down or put back in the hands of public servants.

What I have here is a letter from the Minister, dated April 23, 1996, saying that they are working on my requests. Appended to that letter is - what appears to be - a standard form letter dated April 16, 1996, to other jurisdictions. Why is this information not available for the Members tonight?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: It is because it has not been gathered from other jurisdictions. I will make excuses for the corporation because I think they are warranted. The Member may not be aware of it, but the president is away on sick leave; he has health problems. The vice-president of operations underwent a fairly serious operation recently; she is just coming back to work now. The last month has been very difficult for the corporation to perform all its functions with those difficulties.

I have had to call in an official to assist me who is not well versed in the budget numbers. It is a difficult time for the Yukon Housing Corporation. It is not that it is trying to ignore or abuse the Member for Riverside or other Members of this House.

Mr. Cable: The request was made approximately 38 days ago. The information can be solicited over the telephone in a few hours. It has been solicited in part by the local Hom Builders' Association. I am sure that the information could have been replicated very easily by the Yukon Housing Corporation. I cannot accept the excuses that were just put forward.

Has the Yukon Housing Corporation received any information whatsoever on the rights of employees in other housing corporations and in other housing departments to build houses after hours?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: Apparently some of that information has come in. It was given to the Canadian Home Builders' Association by the Yukon Housing Corporation. I believe that more information has arrived and it will be provided.

If it is so simple to get this information, then perhaps the Member could have had his researcher, and used his funds, to call and obtain it. He would have it, as the Member for Riverdale South has been able to do, by contacting the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation in Ottawa. She has gone to a hotel somewhere and got the room statements of all the employees.

All the employees? If it so simple then I do not know why the Member for Riverside would be putting the onus on the Yukon Housing Corporation to do his simple research for him.

Mr. Cable: It is because the Minister agreed to provide the information. That is why.

This has been an issue that has burbled away in the background for years. It has raised antagonisms between the Yukon Housing Corporation and the private housing sector and has vastly increased the animosity that was there to begin with. I would think that complying with what I thought was a very reasonable request, as some means of alleviating that conflict, would have been in the interest of the Yukon Housing Corporation, rather than sitting back sandbagging.

Let me ask the Minister this question: what has the Housing Corporation found to date on conflict-of-interest policies across the country? Has there been any indication whatsoever about what employees of housing corporations are permitted to do after hours?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: No, we do not have that with us tonight. I am sure there are conflict guidelines for all housing corporations. We have talked to the Canadian Home Builders' Association and they do not want this animosity either. The president met with them and they are trying to put the issue to bed. Perhaps, as their spokesperson, the Member for Riverside is trying to keep it alive longer than it should be.

Mr. Cable: I am not going to dignify that silly comment with a reply.

The legislation that we have from Ontario, which has been provided to me and is dated July 31, 1995, indicates, "That an employee should not knowingly engage in any outside work or business undertaking in which his or her interest conflicts with the best interest of the Crown, such as any outside work or business undertaking that" - and it has a number of subclauses and one of them is - "would otherwise be full-time employment for another person."

Does the Minister think that is an appropriate restriction to put on the employees of the Housing Corporation with respect to the building of houses after hours?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: It may be. I do not have it in front of me. It is something that our Public Service Commission is always working on. It is concerned about the conflict, and certainly any representations to improve our policies are welcome.

Mr. Cable: How does the Minister see this issue being resolved? The Minister has indicated that the issue should not be discussed in this House because it might raise animosities. These animosities have been ongoing for many, many months. It is my understanding that at the moment they certainly are not near resolution.

Does the Minister see taking an active role to resolve this problem?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: To correct the record, it is not true that I said this issue should not be raised in the House at all. I have played quite an active role in enlisting the representatations of the Canadian Home Builders' Association. I have received letters from them and I have asked the Public Service Commission to deal with it, and I have asked the Yukon Housing Corporation to meet the Canadian Home Builders' Association to put this issue to bed. I hope and expect that is being done. There seems to be will on both sides to do that.

Mr. Cable: In which case I will accept the Minister's appreciation of the situation. We will see how it plays out over the next few weeks or days.

On another matter, with respect to the housing situation in Dawson, is there any involvement of the Yukon Housing Corporation in the resolution of what appears to be a housing shortage due to the Loki Gold housing requirements?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: No.

Unanimous consent for motion to extend sitting hours further

Hon. Mr. Fisher: On behalf of the House Leaders, I request unanimous consent to move the following motion:

THAT the Committee of the Whole and the House continue to sit past 10:30 p.m. this evening in order to deal with the business identified in the motion respecting sitting times which was passed by the Assembly on April 25, 1996.

Before you ask if there is unanimous consent for this motion to be moved, Mr. Chair, I wish to inform the Committee that the understanding of the House Leaders is that all Members of the Assembly, including the Member for Riverdale South, are committed to completing the business before the House by approximately 11:30 p.m.

Chair: Is there unanimous consent to move this motion?

All Hon. Members: Agreed.

Chair: There is unanimous consent.

It has been moved

THAT the Committee of the Whole and the House continue to sit past 10:30 p.m. this evening in order to deal with the business identified in the motion respecting sitting times which was passed by the Assembly on April 25, 1996.

Motion agreed to

Chair: Are you prepared to go line by line at this time on the Yukon Housing Corporation? We will go line by line.

On Operation and Maintenance Expenditures

On Administration

Administration in the amount of $3,666,000 agreed to

On Program Costs

Program Costs in the amount of $8,554,000 agreed to

Operation and Maintenance Expenditures for Yukon Housing Corporation in the amount of $12,220,000 agreed to

On Capital Expenditures

Chair: Is there any general debate?

Ms. Moorcroft: I have one quick comment on this. In April 1995, I requested that a home completion program be established to help many rural constituents whose homes are unfinished but who do not fit into the home repair program. I also asked if amendments could be made to existing programs, whereby some of our constituents might qualify for the home completion program in the 1995-96 year. One year ago, the Minister stated that the Yukon Housing Corporation Board had instructed staff to develop a home completion program and that the Yukon Housing Corporation might be able to piggyback home completion with the home ownership program, possibly in the 1995-96 budget estimates. I am, therefore, singularly unimpressed with the Minister's letter of April 24, saying that he asked the corporation's board of directors to consider developing a home completion program as a priority. They will consider this request at an upcoming May meeting.

One year ago, the Minister said that the staff was developing this program because the Yukon Housing Corporation Board had already directed the staff to do it. I just wanted to put that on the record.

Chair: Are we prepared to go line by line at this time?

We will go line by line.

On Home Repair

Home Repair in the amount of $4,000,000 agreed to

On Home Ownership

Mr. Harding: I made a request to the Department of Finance, because it deals with the Toronto Dominion Bank, to try to see if there is any way we can extract from the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation a commitment to change its policy of not coming up with any mortgage backing for home ownership in Faro, because Faro is seen by it to be a one-industry mining town. I have not had any response back from Finance, but I do think that home ownership is a very critical element to the future of the community of Faro.

I know that Faro Real Estate is interested in selling a number of units in the community - probably about 100 was the number indicated to me - and if we could establish some kind of a modified mortgage proposal in the community, we would go a long way toward breaking the monopoly Faro Real Estate has, as well as improving the sense of permanency in the community.

I would ask the Minister tonight if he will liaise with Finance and the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation to see if we can break the deadlock once and for all. It has been a long-standing issue, but I think that, rather than looking at the status quo, we should be looking at some modified solution. Could he do that?

Hon. Mr. Nordling: Yes, I will undertake to do that on behalf of the Member and the people of Faro.

I have seen some information on this. It seemed that the advancements to date were to change the designation from a single-industry town to a high risk area. I hope there can be a lot more progress soon, and I will promote that.

Chair: Are we prepared to go line by line? We will go line by line at this time.

Home Ownership in the amount of $3,000,000 agreed to

On Owner Build

Chair: Is there any general debate on this program? We will go line by line at this time.

Owner Build in the amount of $1,000,000 agreed to

On Rental Suites

Chair: Is there any general debate on this program? We will go line by line at this time.

Rental Suites in the amount of $500,000 agreed to

On Joint Venture

Chair: Is there any general debate on this program? We will go line by line at this time.

Hon. Mr. Nordling: For the Member for Riverside who asked about the housing in Dawson, this joint venture program is accessible to any private sector developer wanting to get into housing in Dawson so, to that extent, Yukon Housing may be involved but we are not involved in any discussions at the present time.

Joint Venture in the amount of $500,000 agreed to

On Non-Profit Housing

Chair: We will now go line by line.

On Renovation and Rehabilitation Existing Stock

Renovation and Rehabilitation Existing Stock in the amount of $400,000 agreed to

Non-Profit Housing in the amount of $400,000 agreed to

On Staff Housing

Chair: We will go to line by line.

On Renovation and Rehabilitation Existing Stock

Renovation and Rehabilitation Existing Stock in the amount of $150,000 agreed to

Staff Housing in the amount of $150,000 agreed to

Chair: We will go line by line at this time.

On Central Services

Central Services in the amount of $206,000 agreed to

Capital Expenditures for Yukon Housing Corporation in the amount of $9,756,000 agreed to

Yukon Housing Corporation agreed to

Yukon Liquor Corporation

Chair: Is there any general debate on the Liquor Corporation?

Hon. Mr. Brewster: The Liquor Corporation for the current year is anticipating comparable dollar and volume sales to that of the past year. An increase in both the economic activity and population in Faro has in part offset the continual trend toward lower alcohol consumption that was being experienced in other recent years.

At this time, the budget includes only a modest capital budget amount of $190,000 for facilities, systems and equipment replacement and upgrades. The corporation will continue to refine its purchasing, and inventory management practices in order to help offset various costs. These refinements include progressive marketing and merchandising techniques will allow for reduction in the total on-hand inventory required to meet consumption demand.

In the corporation's social responsibility budget, the corporation will continue with various incentives, as well as to undertake new ones. Some examples of the continuing incentives are the public awareness radio programs focusing on various facets of responsible drinking. Additionally, the corporation will continue to support poster and brochure campaigns organized by such organizations as the Canada Safety Council, Canada Power and Sales Squadrons, the Brewer Association of Canada, the Association of Canadian Distillers and the College of Family Physicians of Canada.

The responsible service program will be expanded to include those volunteers' services who work with various non-profit organizations who operate under special occasion permits to raise revenue to support the community and service incentives.

The program will be continued to be delivered throughout the Yukon for the staff and management of various licensed establishments with the cooperation and assistance of the British Columbia/Yukon Hotel Association and the RCMP. This reaffirms the corporation's commitment to a proactive approach to licensing and enforcement.

Chair: Is there any general debate?

Mr. Joe: I will be very brief. There is hardly anything that has changed from last year. I keep asking the same questions. I do not know how we are going to deal with the social problems in every community and I cannot find the solutions.

Every year people go out drinking and in the colder months many people die by freezing to death. I do not think the young generation wants to live with this kind of problem. They have to slow down sometime.

That is a lot of money here - $7 million. The profits from liquor sales must have been used for buying more booze. Is that what it was used for?

Hon. Mr. Brewster: I hear the Member for Mayo-Tatchun. However, I have to point out that the $7 million goes into the general revenue, and a big share of that goes into social health and welfare to help the people. I realize there is a problem, but I have also personally gone through that in my life with my family. People have to turn around. You cannot buy yourself out of that. It has to be people and the families have to help people control this. Money will not buy your way out of this. It has to be done by individuals and by families.

Mr. Harding: Is any of the money generated by revenue specifically tagged for social programs dealing with alcohol abuse?

Hon. Mr. Brewster: The only money that is specifically tagged would be the different programs we have to try to slow down drinking. The rest of the money goes to general revenue, and a certain portion is given to the Department of Health and Social Services.

Mr. Harding: Has there been any discussion within the department, or is the Cabinet considering, or have there been even any low-level discussions concerning contracting out or privatization, much the same as provinces, such as Alberta, have gone to?

Hon. Mr. Brewster: There have been no discussions about privatization, but we have been watching it very closely.

Mr. Harding: Would the Minister include contracting out in the definition of privatization?

Hon. Mr. Brewster: Yes.

Mr. Harding: Last year, the government brought in a program that allowed for debit cards and credit cards to be used in liquor stores - and some in the rural communities for territorial agents. Has that cost the government much and has it seen consumption increase as a result?

Hon. Mr. Brewster: No, there is not a great cost. We do not know if consumption has increased as a result of it or if it is due to an increase in population. Liquor sales have increased by 6.9 percent. We believe that the increased population in the Member for Faro's home town has made that difference.

Mr. Harding: I have been known to buy the odd bottle of wine there myself.

Since the policy was initiated, have any concerns been raised with the department about people getting themselves into credit trouble as a result of the policy change?

Hon. Mr. Brewster: Not to our knowledge.

Mr. Joe: I have one last question. I would like to talk about the election coming up this year.

There will be a lot of talk again and many promises. The government is going to have to face us whether it likes it or not. He says that to me all the time.

How many years have I been complaining about the social problems? I have talked to every Minister in this House. This is my last speech to the last Minister, and I do not want to be too hard on him. However, I have to say this, because there is an election coming. That is the time when we are all going to talk. Whether he likes it or not, we are going to talk. There is nothing to laugh about. I do not think the problems that we are facing today are any good for the young generation.

We will have to live with these problems forever. I do not like it.

Is there any way we can find some kind of solution that might change the whole Yukon?

Hon. Mr. Brewster: I sympathize with the Member for Mayo-Tatchun. I realize how much of a problem it is. I went through it at various times. The government is trying, but it also has to start in the family level, when the children are young. Perhaps with the new sports and recreation support, I hope that more children will get into sports. I have found that the children who do get into sports do less drinking and get involved in more activities.

The Sports and Recreation: Toward 2000 will be out soon and should be back in from the people at the end of this month. I hope that they give us some more recommendations about how to get more people involved. I certainly have encouraged more money to go out to the rural ridings and get more children into sports. This is the first time that the Arctic Winter Games has had 25 percent of the participants coming from outside of Whitehorse. I think that is a good start and must be increased continually. The more young people we can get into sports, the less trouble we will have with alcohol.

Mrs. Firth: I must take five minutes to give my report card on the Liquor Corporation, as well as all the other corporations I have been doing. The Liquor Corporation currently operates at arm's length from the government and, due to good management and the ability to generate significant revenues, seems to have no particular problems. Please do not make me regret saying this.

The government must ensure that the policies and procedures are in place that will protect the public from problems that may arise as the result of inappropriate management practices.

The Liquor Corporation must continue to be accountable to the public for its major expenditures through the budgetary process and debate in the Legislature. I understand it is going to be reviewing and updating its legislation and I look forward to that process.

I would make a recommendation to the corporation that it deal with the issue of micro-breweries, as we discussed in the budget briefing, and I know it will do that.

I would like to thank the acting president and his staff for their cooperation. We had an excellent briefing and they opened the corporation's books to me and my researcher, and we were provided with more information than I have ever been provided, as a Member of this Legislature, about the operations of the corporation.

Hon. Mr. Brewster: I would like to thank the Member for her compliments and I will see that they are passed on to the staff, including the president.

Deputy Chair: Are we prepared to go line by line?

On Gross Advances

Gross Advances in the amount of $1.00 agreed to

On Less Internal Recovery

Less Internal Recovery in the amount of $1.00 agreed to

Operation and Maintenance Expenditures for Yukon Liquor Corporation in the amount of $1.00 agreed to

Liquor Corporation agreed to

Loan Capital and Loan Amortization

Deputy Chair: Is there any general debate?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I will be very brief. The purpose of the loan capital portion of this program is to simply appropriate money that may be loaned to other parties; principally, municipalities.

The figure of $5 million is an outside limit for such loans based on a survey of the municipalities by the Department of Community and Transportation Services.

Loans have been appropriated in the past, although the actual annual expenditure has never been this large. The expenditure line represents the sum of loans that can be made under the corporation. The recovery of a similar sum simply indicates that such loans do not have any impact on our surplus/deficit position; rather, they are an asset on our balance sheet.

The loan amortization expenditure line item is the sum we are asking to be appropriated to repay loans the territorial government owes to the federal government, the Canada Pension Plan fund or open market lenders. These loans were taken out a number of years ago for the purpose of reloaning to the municipalities. The appropriation is broken down into principal and interest, as shown on page 17-1 of the estimates book.

The loan amortization recovery line represents the sum we will receive from municipalities as repayment of the loans we have made to them over the years. As with the expenditure line, this item has been divided between principal and interest.

The recovery is larger than the expenditure for several reasons. When we were borrowing from others to reloan to municipalities, some of the loan terms and interest rates did not match. In other words, the repayment period and the interest rate of a loan we took out from the federal government to reloan to the municipalities was not always the same as the repayment period and interest rate on the loan that we made to the municipality.

We do not know why these differences occurred. In recent years, we have financed loans to municipalities ourselves and have not borrowed funds from others. Under such circumstances, it is apparent the recovery will exceed the expenditure.

Chair: We will go line by line at this time.

On Loans to Third Parties

Mr. McDonald: I just have a couple of general questions to ask of the Minister. What is the current debt load for municipalities right now? What does it amount to?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: As of March 31, 1996, the total due to YTG is $11,401,000.

Mr. McDonald: A couple of years ago, I asked the question facetiously of the Minister of Community and Transportation Services about the debt load that municipalities were carrying. The Minister indicated that, as far as YTG was concerned, he felt very strongly that YTG should have no operating debt and that the Government of Yukon, for its part, should not incur debt for the purposes of capital works.

Given that, as the Minister indicates, the debt for municipalities is now approximately $11.5 million, does the Government of the Yukon take a position when it comes to municipal governments and the proportion of municipal government debt? Does the government feel that it is an issue that ought to be addressed, given the government's strong position with respect to the no-debt position taken by the Yukon Party government for the Yukon government's purposes?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I understand that the maximum amount we can lend to them is set out in the Municipal Act.

Mr. McDonald: I know that, and the Yukon government, too, can assume a fair amount of debt itself if it wants to. Certainly, there is plenty of opportunity to incur lots of debt. I am asking the Minister a policy question about whether or not the Government of Yukon takes a position on this matter, given its own very strong reluctance to incur debt.

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: The Member is absolutely right. If we got into a position where we were having to incur debt to finance municipalities, we would have to give another thought to it. Right now, we are financing it out of our own revenues and, as long as we can do that, we can help them out.

Just for the Member's information, the bulk of the debt is to the City of Whitehorse - $10.178 million - with $265,000 to Dawson and $958,000 to Faro.

Mr. McDonald: I want to point out that this is very similar to the comments made a couple of years ago, when we were in the midst of some spirited discussion in the Legislature about the Government of Yukon and the debt situation, and whether or not it should incur debt.

At one point I think the government booked a $13 million accumulated debt. The municipalities, which are much smaller organizations in financial terms, have an accumulated debt that is almost equivalent to the $13 million accumulated debt that the Yukon government once had.

I am wondering how the government reconciled those positions, or if there is no reconciliation and that is just the way it is.

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I do not believe we are in a position to dictate to municipalities whether or not they should incur debt. If the government has the money to loan to them or if the government is borrowing the money on the open market and reloaning it to them at the same interest rate, and as long as we do not feel the government is going to be put into jeopardy by it, I do not think it is up to us to take a position on how the municipalities should operate.

Loans to Third Parties in the amount of $5,000,000 agreed to

Loan Capital in the amount of $5,000,000 agreed to

Loan Capital and Loan Amortization agreed to

Office of the Ombudsman

Chair: Is there any general debate? Are we prepared to go line by line at this time? We will go line by line.

On Operation and Maintenance Expenditures

On Office of the Ombudsman

On Ombudsman

Ombudsman in the amount of $86,000 agreed to

On Information and Privacy Commissioner

Mr. McDonald: We have not at all discussed the Information and Privacy Commissioner in the Legislature, nor have we discussed how the office will be set up. I wonder if the Minister can give us a sketch of what he is anticipating will happen.

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: In the operation and maintenance budget, a total of $190,000 is provided for operation and maintenance expenditures for the budget for the first year of operation of the Ombudsman's office. Funding has been allocated for each of the three functions, or activities, of the office: the Ombudsman, the Information and Privacy Commissioner, and the Conflicts Commission. This is in keeping with the requirement that the funding for the Information and Privacy Commissioner be identified separately in the appropriation for the Ombudsman's office, section 41 of the Access to Information and Protection of Privacy Act.

The level of funding that has been allocated to each of the activities has been done on a percentage basis. This is obviously an estimate, which will be refined as we gain experience with the activities and have a clearer idea about the amount of time spent on each activity. As it stands, 45 percent is for the Ombudsman; 45 percent is for the Information and Privacy Commissioner, and 10 percent of the budget is for the Conflicts Commission.

Mr. McDonald: It is late. I was asking specifically about the Information and Privacy Commissioner and how that office was going to be set up. We have spent a lot of time talking about the Ombudsman and do not need to hear any more about that. We probably have not talked enough about the Conflicts Commission but I will not ask any questions about it. I am interested in the Information and Privacy Commissioner per se and what the government intends to do with respect to the selection and appointment of the Information and Privacy Commissioner, where the office would be located, when it would start operating, et cetera.

Can the Minister give us that information?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: My understanding is that it will all be run out of the Ombudsman's office. I do not think a separate office will be set up for it.

Mr. McDonald: Is the Minister saying that the Ombudsman will also be the Information and Privacy Commissioner, or is this going to be a separate person? It appears that it will be a separate person, according to the budget. Is it a separate person or is it the same person?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: No, it is the same person. The Ombudsman will be acting as the Information and Privacy Commissioner.

Mr. McDonald: Obviously, Harley Johnson is going to be very, very valuable to our Legislature. Can the Minister give me a briefing note, or something specific that would talk about how the Information and Privacy Commissioner's office will work, because I am not sure I understand how this is about to take place? Can he tell us whether or not the act under which this commissioner will operate has been proclaimed? If it has not, can he tell us when it will be proclaimed?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: No, it has not been proclaimed, but it will be proclaimed at the same time that we proclaim the Ombudsman Act, once we have the person in place.

Mr. McDonald: Will the briefing note come, too?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: Yes, I will provide the Member with the briefing note.

Information and Privacy Commissioner in the amount of $86,000 agreed to

On Conflicts Commission

Conflicts Commission in the amount of $18,000 agreed to

Office of the Ombudsman in the amount of $190,000 agreed to

Office of the Ombudsman agreed to

Chair: Please turn to Schedule A in the bill.

On Schedule A

Schedule A agreed to

On Schedule B

Schedule B agreed to

On Schedule C

Schedule C agreed to

On Clause 1

Clause 1 agreed to

On Clause 2

Clause 2 agreed to

On Clause 3

Clause 3 agreed to

On Title

Title agreed to

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: Mr. Chair, I move you report Bill No. 10, entitled First Appropriation Act, 1996-97, out of Committee without amendment.

Motion agreed to

Bill No. 32 - An Act to Amend the Financial Administration Act

Chair: We will now move to Bill No. 32.

Is there any general debate?

Are we prepared to go clause by clause?

We will go clause by clause.

On Clause 1

Clause 1 agreed to

On Clause 2

Clause 2 agreed to

On Title

Title agreed to

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: Mr. Chair, I move you report Bill No. 32, entitled An Act to Amend the Financial Administration Act, out of Committee without amendment.

Motion agreed to

Bill No. 45 - An Act to Amend the Income Tax Act

Chair: We will now move to Bill No. 45, An Act to Amend the Income Tax Act. Is there any general debate?

Mr. McDonald: I understand the purposes of this act and, rather than go through it clause by clause, I move the act be deemed read.

Chair: Is there unanimous consent?

All Hon. Members: Agreed.

Chair: Unanimous consent has been granted.

Shall all the clauses carry?

On Clauses 1 through 21

Clauses 1 through 21 agreed to

On Title

Title agreed to

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: Mr. Chair, I move you report Bill No. 45, An Act to Amend the Income Tax Act, out of Committee without amendment.

Motion agreed to

Bill No. 24 - Miscellaneous Statute Law Amendment Act, 1996

Chair: We will now move to Bill No. 24, Miscellaneous Statute Law Amendment Act, 1996. Is there any general debate?

On Taxation and Assessment Act

On Clause 1

Clause 1 agreed to

On Clause 2

Clause 2 agreed to

On Clause 3

Clause 3 agreed to

On Business Corporations Act

On Clause 1

Clause 1 agreed to

On Education Act

On Clause 1

Clause 1 agreed to

On Clause 2

Clause 2 agreed to

On Clause 3

Clause 3 agreed to

On Clause 4

Clause 4 agreed to

On Clause 5

Clause 5 agreed to

On Clause 6

Clause 6 agreed to

On Enactments Republication Act, 1993

On Clause 1

Clause 1 agreed to

On Clause 2

Clause 2 agreed to

On Highways Act

On Clause 1

Clause 1 agreed to

On Clause 2

Clause 2 agreed to

On An Act to Amend the Interpretation Act

On Clause 1

Clause 1 agreed to

On Judicature Act

On Clause 1

Clause 1 agreed to

On Jury Act

On Clause 1

Clause 1 agreed to

On An Act to Amend the Liquor Act - No. 2

On Clause 1

Clause 1 agreed to

On Municipal Act

On Clause 1

Clause 1 agreed to

On Clause 2

Clause 2 agreed to

On Registered Nurses Professions Act

On Clause 1

Clause 1 agreed to

On Subdivision Act

On Clause 1

Clause 1 agreed to

On Wildlife Act

On Clause 1

Clause 1 agreed to

On Clause 2

Clause 2 agreed to

On Title

Title agreed to

Hon. Mr. Phillips: Mr. Chair, I move that Bill No. 24 be reported out of Committee without amendment.

Motion agreed to

Bill No. 98 - An Act to Amend the Historic Resources Act

Chair: We will now move to Bill No. 98, An Act to Amend the Historic Resources Act. Is there any general debate?

Mrs. Firth: I just have one question about the Act to Amend the Historic Resources Act. The group of individuals who are sponsoring this act now were very adamant about the property rights and expropriation rights and I wanted to know why they had excluded it from this bill?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: In consultation with First Nations, the Yukon Historical and Museums Association and others, and in discussion with the Heritage Resources Board, I am more comfortable now in going with the act the way it is. I feel that the individual's rights can be protected through regulations rather than in the way that we were planning to do it initially.

It went out for consultation, and I was convinced that this was a better way to go.

Mrs. Firth: I find it quite amazing that a whole political philosophy can be changed by regulation. I thought the issue of property rights and expropriation was an extremely strong philosophical point with this government, so I guess it is not. I would have preferred to have seen that stay in, but I guess I am the exception. I am one of those right-wing independents.

Mr. Sloan: I would like to say that we are pleased that this act is going to come to the fore and will be passed in order to preserve the Yukon's heritage.

We realize that some compromises have been made, but we are convinced that all of the relevant parties have been consulted, particularly the heritage community.

We support this bill. There are still elements of it that we feel could do with some further revision, but in general principle, we support it and look forward to its passage.

Mr. McDonald: When does the government plan to proclaim this bill? Will the City of Whitehorse pass attending bylaws that will assist in the protection of heritage properties within the city?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: Once the act is proclaimed, I believe the city can begin the process of drafting the proper legislation. As for having it proclaimed, I will see if there is a way I can personally walk it over to the Commissioner's office to make sure the bill gets there this time. I give the Member that commitment.

Mr. McDonald: That is a pretty cheeky comment coming from someone who has taken three years to bring this amendment through the Legislature.

I think we can probably deem the bill to be read, but there is a drafting question I would like to ask the Minister.

We had agreed in this Legislature that we could pass English language versions of amendments without the attending French version being in the Legislature. The understanding under the Languages Act is that the French language version would come later and before proclamation and, as long as the French language version was dealt with before proclamation, the bill could be proclaimed.

This bill introduces a bit of a precedent in that it brings forward French language versions of the English language text that we once passed, sometime ago. As a precedent, this now suggests that it is perhaps the government's position, at least, and certainly the Department of Justice's long-standing position, that a bill cannot be proclaimed unless the Legislature consciously and, on the floor, sees the French language text and proceeds with it.

Can the Minister tell me what is happening? I thought we had an understanding.

Hon. Mr. Phillips: The Member makes a good point. I follow the same thinking as the Member on this. I do not think this can be considered a precedent.

Mr. McDonald: I hope it is not. I would not like the free flow of this Legislature to be compromised by any restrictive provisions in the Languages Act. This was not anticipated when the Languages Act was passed in the first place.

Given our general support in the Legislature, I would move that the act be deemed read.

Chair: Is there unanimous consent to deem this bill to have been read?

All Members: Agreed.

Chair: Unanimous consent has been granted.

Shall all the clauses carry?

On Clauses 1 through 17

Clauses 1 through 17 agreed to

On Title

Title agreed to

Hon. Mr. Phillips: Mr. Chair, I move that you report Bill No. 98, entitled An Act to Amend the Historic Resources Act, through Committee without amendment.

Motion agreed to

Bill No. 46 - An Act to Amend the Elections Act

Chair: We will now move to Bill No. 46, An Act to Amend the Elections Act. Is there any general debate?

Are you prepared to go clause by clause at this time? We will go clause by clause at this time.

On Clause 1

Clause 1 agreed to

On Clause 2

Clause 2 agreed to

On Clause 3

Clause 3 agreed to

On Clause 4

Clause 4 agreed to

On Clause 5

Clause 5 agreed to

On Clause 6

Clause 6 agreed to

On Clause 7

Clause 7 agreed to

On Clause 8

Clause 8 agreed to

On Title

Title agreed to

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: Mr. Chair, I move you report Bill No. 46, An Act to Amend the Elections Act, out of Committee without amendment.

Motion agreed to

Bill No. 66 - An Act to Amend the Controverted Elections Act

Chair: We will now go to Bill No. 66, An Act to Amend the Controverted Elections Act. Is there any general debate?

We will go clause by clause at this time.

On Clause 1

Clause 1 agreed to

On Clause 2

Clause 2 agreed to

On Title

Title agreed to

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: Mr. Chair, I move you report Bill No. 66, entitled An Act to Amend the Controverted Elections Act, out of Committee without amendment.

Motion agreed to

Bill No. 53 - An Act to Amend the Dental Profession Act

Chair: Is there any general debate?

Are we prepared to go clause by clause?

We will go clause by clause.

On Clause 1

Clause 1 agreed to

On Clause 2

Clause 2 agreed to

On Clause 3

Clause 3 agreed to

On Clause 4

Clause 4 agreed to

On Title

Title agreed to

Hon. Mr. Phillips: Mr. Chair, I move you report Bill No. 53, entitled An Act to Amend the Dental Profession Act, out of Committee without amendment.

Motion agreed to

Chair: We will move on to Bill No. 68, An Act to Amend the College Act.

Bill No. 68 - An Act to Amend the College Act

Chair: Is there any general debate? We will go clause by clause at this time.

On Clause 1

Clause 1 agreed to

On Clause 2

Clause 2 agreed to

On Clause 3

Clause 3 agreed to

On Clause 4

Clause 4 agreed to

On Clause 5

Clause 5 agreed to

On Clause 6

Clause 6 agreed to

On Clause 7

Clause 7 agreed to

On Clause 8

Clause 8 agreed to

On Clause 9

Clause 9 agreed to

On Clause 10

Clause 10 agreed to

On Clause 11

Clause 11 agreed to

On Clause 12

Clause 12 agreed to

On Clause 13

Clause 13 agreed to

On Clause 14

Clause 14 agreed to

On Clause 15

Clause 15 agreed to

On Title

Title agreed to

Hon. Mr. Nordling: Mr. Chair, I move that you report Bill No. 68, entitled An Act to Amend the College Act, out of Committee without amendment.

Motion agreed to

Bill No. 17 - An Act to Amend the Dog Act

Chair: Is there any general debate?

We will go clause by clause at this time.

On Clause 1

Clause 1 agreed to

On Clause 2

Clause 2 agreed to

On Clause 3

Clause 3 agreed to

On Clause 4

Clause 4 agreed to

On Clause 5

Clause 5 agreed to

On Title

Title agreed to

Hon. Mr. Brewster: Mr. Chair, I move that you report Bill No. 17, entitled An Act to Amend the Dog Act, out of Committee without amendment.

Motion agreed to

Chair: We will now move on to Bill No. 56, An Act to Amend the Conflict of Interest (Members and Ministers) Act.

Bill No. 56 - An Act to Amend the Conflict of Interest (Members and Ministers) Act

Chair: Is there any general debate?

We will go clause by clause at this time.

Mr. McDonald: I have a couple of questions for the Minister with respect to this bill.

First of all, I asked a question in Question Period today with respect to changing the order-in-council on the public inquiry - the public inquiry making specific reference to the order-in-council - which identified that the subject of the allegation would be the only person who would be investigated by the commissioner. The section that allows the commissioner to reflect on the actions of the person making the allegations is not included. Can the Minister indicate what his position is on that?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: The Justice Minister just went upstairs to get the briefing note on that. Everything is in order. We need not change the order-in-council. The commissioner will rule on each and all of the clauses in the bill, and that is his prerogative. After he deals with clause 17(1) or (2) - or whatever it is - the rest of the clauses fall in place. We will give the Member a copy of the briefing note.

Mr. McDonald: I would appreciate seeing the note.

The question was asked whether or not the Government Leader would call a special sitting to deal with the Hughes report. Is the Government Leader prepared to call a special sitting when the report is made public?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: If it is necessary, yes, I will. I am not sure that the report is going to the Legislative Assembly. I have not had a chance to check into that aspect of it. However, if it is necessary, I certainly see no difficulty recalling the House.

Mr. McDonald: What does the Minister consider the necessary condition. If Mr. Hughes recommends that action be taken by the Legislature with respect to Members and their tenure in this place, will the Minister call a special sitting of the House?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: Yes, if there is a recommendation that the Legislative Assembly has to deal with decisions contained in the report, I certainly will recall the House.

Mr. McDonald: Is it the Minister's understanding that the report is given to both the Cabinet and to the persons named in the allegations, at the same time?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: Yes, that is my understanding. I believe the report is made public 30 days after that.

On Clause 1

Clause 1 agreed to

On Title

Title agreed to

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: Mr. Chair, I move that you report Bill No. 56, An Act to Amend the Conflict of Interest (Members and Ministers) Act, out of Committee without amendment.

Motion agreed to

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I move that the Speaker do now resume the Chair.

Motion agreed to

Speaker resumes the Chair

Speaker: I will now call the House to order. May the House have a report from the Chair of the Committee of the Whole?

Chair: The Committee of the Whole has considered Bill No. 10, First Appropriation Act, 1996-97; Bill No. 32, An Act to Amend the Financial Administration Act; Bill No. 45, An Act to Amend the Income Tax Act; Bill No. 24, Miscellaneous Statute Law Amendment Act, 1996; Bill No. 98, An Act to Amend the Historic Resources Act; Bill No. 46, An Act to Amend the Elections Act; Bill No. 66, An Act to Amend the Controverted Elections Act; Bill No. 53, An Act to Amend the Dental Profession Act; Bill No. 68, An Act to Amend the College Act; Bill No. 17, An Act to Amend the Dog Act; Bill No. 56, entitled An Act to Amend the Conflict of Interest (Members and Ministers) Act, and directed me to report them without amendment.

Speaker: You have heard the report of the Chair of Committee of the Whole. Are you agreed?

Some Hon. Members: Agreed.

Speaker: I declare the report carried.

GOVERNMENT BILLS

Bill No. 10: Third Reading

Clerk: Third Reading, Bill No. 10, standing in the name of the Hon. Mr. Ostashek.

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I move that Bill No. 10, entitled First Appropriation Act, 1996-97, be now read a third time and do pass.

Speaker: It has been moved by the Hon. Government Leader that Bill No. 10, entitled First Appropriation Act, 1996-97, be now read a third time and do pass.

Mrs. Firth: I have never let a budget pass yet without making some comments at third reading and I want to make some comments to this one as well.

I want to finish up some of my observations about the corporations that I did not have a chance to do when we were debating the corporations.

I also want to include in my comments some points about the Workers' Compensation Board and Yukon College.

The college was very cooperative about providing information to us. We received prompt responses from it, and I thank the people there for their time and efforts. I think the college must ensure that it delivers appropriate programs and courses of the highest possible quality. I recognize that it will have some financial difficulties over the coming years because the demand for program delivery is increasing, yet the money that is available is decreasing.

I have made recommendations to the Minister responsible regarding the Hospital Corporation. I hope he will follow through with the recommendations I made.

With respect to the Workers' Compensation Board, I think that we have to re-establish the arm's-length relationship between the government and the Workers' Compensation Board.

The Minister's questioning of the day-to-day operations has to stop. Once the public inquiry is completed, I would be very interested in knowing what the government's plans are after it receives a copy.

A new president will be hired and I look forward to seeing some positive and progressive changes made with respect to the operation of that corporation.

I have saved the Housing Corporation for last, but not because I have saved the best until the last. My recommendation to the Minister regarding the operations of the Housing Corporation and what is going on there is that I think that the corporation should be put on probation for the next three or four months and observed for evidence of improvement with respect to their reputation and their attitude toward the public and the community.

I think a stop should be put to the growth of new programs and to the empire building for this period of time.

I stand firm with my position that I think the corporation should stop using credit cards, but I know that is not going to happen, because the Minister does not agree with me.

If there is not a positive result after this probationary period, I am going to make the following recommendations to either this government or the new government that comes in: the Yukon Housing Corporation should be dissolved; the social housing units and responsibilities should be transferred to Health and Social Services; the staff housing units should be transferred to property management; and the responsibilities to administer the mortgages and home repair loans should return to the traditional financial institutions.

I take the comments that I make very seriously. I have to tell the Minister that I have at least noticed some improvement in his knowledge about the corporation and his sentiment about the corporation. However, no matter how good his intentions are, I understand the resources that he has to work with. I make these comments in a very serious way. I hope that the Minister will take them very seriously.

I want to finish my brief comments by referring to an interview conducted on the radio a few days ago with the Government Leader - it was either an interview of him talking about the convention, or his vision for the Yukon and his party's vision for the Yukon.

The Government Leader said to the public to go back to 1992 and ask four things. He wanted Yukoners to ask themselves if they were better off now than in 1992. If one takes the tax increases - an average of about $1,000 per family over the four years - if they are $4,000 poorer and think they are better off, so be it, but I do not think they think that. We have found out in the last couple of days that if one is renting office space to the government, one is definitely not better off now than in 1992.

The second question the Government Leader asked Yukoners to ask themselves was if their hopes for jobs were better now than in 1992. My answer to that is, if Alberta does not get them first, perhaps they are, and perhaps their hopes for jobs are better.

The third question that the Government Leader wanted Yukoners to ask themselves was whether or not health and education is better off now than it was in 1992. Maybe, maybe not. I think that remains to be seen and time will tell. We will have to wait until the new hospital is built and Yukoners get to go over to the hospital and see what the delivery of services is like.

The fourth question that the Government Leader asked people to ask themselves was if they are more optimistic now than they were in 1992. This is the question that is answered with a resounding yes. The reason is because an election is only five months away. I think people are optimistic that there is change on the horizon.

That is my version of the Government Leader's go-back-to-1992-and-ask-yourself-four-things speech.

I will not be supporting this government's budget, which I am sure will come as no surprise to government Members. I think Yukoners have been extremely disappointed with the government's management skills when it comes to handling money.

Something I have noticed about the government in the last couple of years is that it has a bad habit of telling people one thing and then doing another. Another example of that came forward the other night, when the Minister responsible for the Public Service Commission got up and gave a great speech about how offended his party was with respect to the job guarantees for public servants and teachers. However, that government has done nothing about this situation for the past two and a half years. I can think of lots of other examples. We had to drag the Historic Resources Act out of the Minister, and then the government changed it and compromised its philosophy on the intention of that bill.

I know why they are doing that - it is about the Liberals, and I will read it out.

I know why they are saying one thing and doing another, and it all has to do with votes. One can keep one's party constituency happy if one gets up and gives big speeches and pontificates about how offensive something is, but if the legislation is not changed and the public servants and teachers still get to keep their job guarantee after they run for office, then they too might like you and vote for you as well.

I do not like that kind of politics and I do not think Yukoners like it either.

That ends my little speech about the budget. I look forward to voting on it.

Ms. Commodore: I just wanted to get up and say a few words in regard to this budget and in regard to this House. I have sat through many budgets in this House. This is my fourteenth year - almost, I think; it will be, in June - and I wanted to leave here with a few thoughts about some of the things I have seen.

I remember many years ago trying to learn a lot about being a Member of the Legislative Assembly. It probably was not the easiest thing I had ever done, but I have often gone into jobs that were very difficult and one had to learn as one went along. I would like to say that it has been a privilege and sometimes a pleasure, but not always.

I would like to say that I have always had the deepest respect for this House and what it stands for and I still feel that way today. I may not agree with a lot of things that happen. I may not even agree with some of the decisions that Mr. Speaker makes, but I do have a lot of respect for it and I think I always will.

I do have a few things to say that of course will not be very pleasant, but throughout the years that I have been here, I think I have seen some of the darkest days that this Legislature has ever seen.

It was a surprise to me to see those kinds of things happen in this House to that negative degree. I would like to tell a story about something that happened.

After Motion No. 104 was discussed in this House, a lot of phone calls started to come through, not only to us, but also to the Leader of the Official Opposition. A former friend, who was a Tory, called to tell him how disappointed he was that this thing had happened. One of the things he said was that he was disappointed so many people were involved in it. He said he knew Judge Stuart well enough to know that if he thought he had ever done anything unethical in his life, he would not get out of bed in the morning. After knowing my friend and colleague, the Member for McIntyre-Takhini, for 14 years, I feel the same way about him.

I would like to say for the four of us, who are still here from 1982, I know that some of us will not be back. The Member for Kluane will not be back and neither will I. I would like to wish the Member for Kluane well. It has been a pleasure being on the opposite side from him for all these years. I know that he has his own character, as do I.

I am really sorry that had to take place. Despite that, spending 14 years here has been a wonderful experience. I would like to say that I will leave the Legislature with many good memories. I have learned something almost every single day that I have been here. I would like to wish anyone who chooses to seek election good luck.

I would also like to wish you well, Mr. Speaker, because I know you will be much relieved when you move on to another life - perhaps not a better one - but a different one. Also, to my good friend and colleague, the Member for Mayo-Tatchun. I know he is really looking forward to retiring, because he tells us about it every day.

To return to the negative side; I will not be supporting this bill. There are a lot of things in this bill that we disagree with. There are many reasons why I will not be supporting it.

Speaker: Are you prepared for the question?

Division

Speaker: Division has been called. Mr. Clerk, would you please poll the House.

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: Agree.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: Agree.

Hon. Mr. Phillips: Agree.

Hon. Mr. Brewster: Agree.

Hon. Mr. Nordling: Agree.

Mr. Schafer: Agree.

Mr. Millar: Agree.

Mr. Phelps: Agree.

Mr. McDonald: Disagree.

Ms. Moorcroft: Disagree.

Ms. Commodore: Disagree.

Mr. Joe: Disagree.

Mr. Sloan: Disagree.

Mr. Harding: Disagree.

Mr. Cable: Disagree.

Mrs. Firth: Disagree.

Clerk: Mr. Speaker, the results are eight yea, eight nay.

Speaker's casting vote

Speaker: Our Standing Order 4(2) states that in the case of an equality of votes, the Speaker shall give a casting vote. In general, the principle applied to motions and bills is that decisions should not be taken except by a majority. In this case, however, the Chair is aware that the passage of this bill is a test of confidence of the Assembly and the government.

It is my view that questions of confidence are of such importance that an expression of non-confidence should be clearly stated by a majority. The Chair, therefore, votes for the motion.

Motion for third reading of Bill No. 10 agreed to

Speaker: I declare that Bill No. 10 has passed this House.

Bill No. 32: Third Reading

Clerk: Third reading, Bill No. 32, standing in the name of the Hon. Mr. Ostashek.

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I move that Bill No. 32, entitled An Act to Amend the Financial Administration Act, be now read a third time and do pass.

Speaker: It has been moved by the Hon. Government Leader that Bill No. 32, entitled An Act to Amend the Financial Administration Act, be now read a third time and do pass.

Motion for third reading of Bill No. 32 agreed to

Speaker: I declare that Bill No. 32 has passed this House.

Bill No. 45: Third Reading

Clerk: Third reading, Bill No. 45, standing in the name of the Hon. Mr. Ostashek.

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I move that Bill No. 45, An Act to Amend the Income Tax Act, be now read a third time and do pass.

Speaker: It has been moved by the Hon. Government Leader that Bill No. 45, entitled An Act to Amend the Income Tax Act, be now read a third time and do pass.

Motion for third reading of Bill No. 45 agreed to

Speaker: I declare that Bill No. 45 has passed this House.

Bill No. 24: Third Reading

Clerk: Third reading, Bill No. 24, standing in the name of the Hon. Mr. Phillips.

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I move that Bill No. 24, Miscellaneous Statute Law Amendment Act, 1996, be now read a third time and do pass.

Speaker: It has been moved by the Hon. Minister of Justice that Bill No. 24, entitled Miscellaneous Statute Law Amendment Act, 1996, be now read a third time and do pass.

Motion for third reading of Bill No. 24 agreed to

Speaker: I declare that Bill No. 24 has passed this House.

Bill No. 98: Third Reading

Clerk: Third reading, Bill No. 98, standing in the name of the Hon. Mr. Phillips.

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I move that Bill No. 98, An Act to Amend the Historic Resources Act, be now read a third time and do pass.

Speaker: It has been moved by the Hon. Minister of Tourism that Bill No. 98, entitled An Act to Amend the Historic Resources Act, be now read a third time and do pass.

Motion for third reading of Bill No. 98 agreed to

Speaker: I declare that Bill No. 98 has passed this House.

Bill No. 46: Third Reading

Clerk: Third reading, Bill No. 46, standing in the name of the Hon. Mr. Ostashek.

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I move that Bill No. 46, An Act to Amend the Elections Act, be now read a third time and do pass.

Speaker: It has been moved by the Hon. Government Leader that Bill No. 46, entitled An Act to Amend the Elections Act, be now read a third time and do pass.

Motion for third reading of Bill No. 46 agreed to

Speaker: I declare that Bill No. 46 has passed this House.

Bill No. 66: Third Reading

Clerk: Third reading, Bill No. 66, standing in the name of the Hon. Mr. Ostashek.

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I move that Bill No. 66, An Act to Amend the Controverted Elections Act, be now read a third time and do pass.

Speaker: It has been moved by the Hon. Government Leader that Bill No. 66, entitled An Act to Amend the Controverted Elections Act, be now read a third time and do pass.

Motion for third reading of Bill No. 66 agreed to

Speaker: I declare that Bill No. 66 has passed this House.

Bill No. 53: Third Reading

Clerk: Third reading, Bill No. 53, standing in the name of the Hon. Mr. Phillips.

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I move that Bill No. 53, entitled An Act to Amend the Dental Profession Act, be now read a third time and do pass.

Speaker: It has been moved by the Hon. Minister of Justice that Bill No. 53, entitled An Act to Amend the Dental Profession Act, be now read a third time and do pass.

Motion for third reading of Bill No. 53 agreed to

Speaker: I declare that Bill No. 53 has passed this House.

Bill No. 68: Third Reading

Clerk: Third reading, Bill No. 68, standing in the name of the Hon. Mr. Nordling.

Hon. Mr. Nordling: I move that Bill No. 68, entitled An Act to Amend the College Act, be now read a third time and do pass.

Speaker: It has been moved by the Hon. Minister of Education that Bill No. 68, entitled An Act to Amend the College Act, be now read a third time and do pass.

Motion for third reading of Bill No. 68 agreed to

Speaker: I declare that Bill No. 68 has passed this House.

Bill No. 17: Third Reading

Clerk: Third reading, Bill No. 17, standing in the name of the Hon. Mr. Brewster.

Hon. Mr. Brewster: I move that Bill No. 17, entitled An Act to Amend the Dog Act, be now read a third time and do pass.

Speaker: It has been moved by the Hon. Minister of Community and Transportation Services that Bill No. 17, entitled An Act to Amend the Dog Act, be now read a third time and do pass.

Motion for third reading of Bill No. 17 agreed to

Speaker: I declare that Bill No. 17 has passed this House.

Unanimous consent requested pursuant to Standing Order 55(2)

Hon. Mr. Fisher: Pursuant to Standing Order 55(2), I would request the unanimous consent of the House to proceed with third reading of Bill No. 56, entitled An Act to Amend the Conflict of Interest (Members and Ministers) Act.

Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?

All Hon. Members: Agreed.

Speaker: Unanimous consent has been granted.

Bill No. 56: Third Reading

Clerk: Third reading, Bill No. 56, standing in the name of the Hon. Mr. Ostashek.

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I move that Bill No. 56, entitled An Act to Amend the Conflict of Interest (Members and Ministers) Act, be now read a third time and do pass.

Speaker: It has been moved by the Hon. Government Leader that Bill No. 56, entitled An Act to Amend the Conflict of Interest (Members and Ministers) Act, be now read a third time and do pass.

Motion for third reading of Bill No. 56 agreed to

Speaker: I declare that Bill No. 56 has passed this House.

Bill No. 73: Third Reading

Clerk: Third reading, Bill No. 73, standing in the name of the Hon. Mr. Ostashek.

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I move that Bill No. 73, entitled Taxpayer Protection Act, be now read a third time and do pass.

Speaker: It has been moved by the Hon. Government Leader that Bill No. 73, entitled Taxpayer Protection Act, be now read a third time and do pass.

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I will be very brief, but it is important that I speak to this bill. I did meet with the Opposition to try to get consensus on this bill. I do not believe that I was successful, but we believe that this is a very important piece of legislation to our mandate and we require that this act be passed. I am therefore going to call confidence on this act.

Mr. McDonald: We believe without a doubt that the Taxpayer Protection Act is really an act of deception. It is a political exercise, all symbolism -

Unparliamentary language

Speaker: Order. I believe that I have ruled that out of order before. I think the Member should know better than try to use it again.

Mr. McDonald: Is it the word "deception"?

Speaker: Yes.

Mr. McDonald: I will not use the word "deception" again.

It is a political exercise, all symbolism and no substance. Most of all, the act is an ill-fated attempt to convince taxpayers that the Yukon Party has their best interests at heart. In fact, it is hard to believe that the government really has much faith in the practical application of this law. It failed to give the law precedence over other laws in the books, a position that the existing Financial Administration Act enjoys.

Secondly, when faced with obvious practical concerns about how the law will function, the government says that a new government can come forward and amend the bill. We have even been told that the law is designed to be amended. For example, if a government faces an accumulated deficit of its own making, or of the making of its predecessor, the bill is designed to give the government four months to change the law in order to avoid penalties: namely, an election.

Therefore, when the concern is expressed that this government is spending down the surplus dangerously close to the line past which there is an accumulated deficit, the Minister says, "There is no need to worry. If an accumulated deficit results, the new government can change the law and avoid the penalty."

Now, the Minister claims that the act will discourage department managers from doing two things: overspending and budget padding.

In the first instance, I would point out that the existing Financial Administration Act prohibits managers from overspending now. Even though the Financial Administration Act remains on the record, and even takes precedence over the Taxpayer Protection Act, the same Minister says, about the provisions of the Financial Administration Act, "I find it awkward to insist that departments cannot overspend and expect them to budget accurately."

With respect to the second point budget padding it is hard to believe that departmental managers will resist padding their budgets when they know that overspending may result in an election or, more likely, an emergency session of the Legislature.

What this law does not contain is any provision encouraging governments to develop long-term financial plans. I believe that the public is sick and tired of the chaotic financial messages it has received from the Yukon Party government. The public wants off the reckless rollercoaster they have been riding and would prefer, not only stability, but also predictability from their government.

To briefly recap the last three and a half years, the Yukon Party claimed that it was broke when it took office. Its first budget increased overall expenditures and taxed Yukoners to an extent that they had never experienced before. It turned out to be $40 million over the first four years. The increased taxation, we were told, was something that federal Finance wanted done, and the Yukon Party Minister suggested that the NDP should have raised taxes in the mid-1980s, when it had the chance.

Supposedly the taxes were needed to balance the budget and support the increased spending. The budget had no room for changes. It was tighter than a drum. Within months, millions of dollars were found for a new program but, by year-end, the government was again talking about the need to balance the next budget.

When the next budget came down, it came down with a call to public servants to contribute from their pay packets to support yet another record-spending budget. Within hours of cancelling collective bargaining rights and cutting public servants' pay, the government sheepishly announced it had found an unexpected $20 million surplus. The explanation was that this unexpected lapse was the result of sound financial management.

Each year the spending rose, the government wrote off every debt it had on the books, including those it continued to collect. The Minister of Finance said that times were tough, amid a spending taxing frenzy.

Finally, only last week, one Member from the government side told it like it was. I would like to thank him for that. He said, "For myself, I will never accept the excuse that it is a question of costs. We are spending more money in this territory than we ever have before. We have a huge pie that everyone can see and wants a piece of. It is a matter of priorities and allocations, not a question of money not being available." I could not have said it better myself.

For its part, during its entire term of office, the NDP was debt-free and proud of it. Every year there was a surplus. Personal and corporate income taxes did not go up; the tax burden went down; medicare premiums were eliminated, and an off-road fuel tax rebate system was introduced.

Finally, in 1992, the NDP, starting with a $50 million surplus, ended that year with six months of Yukon Party stewardship facing, for the first time ever, an accumulated deficit. We all know what happened, and it is best described in a Whitehorse Star editorial a couple of years back. I will quote a couple of sections from that editorial.

"Shortly after the Yukon Party formed a minority government in 1992, a key member was heard to tell confidants that his long-term game plan was to persuade Yukoners that the public finances left by the arch enemy New Democrats were a horrible mess. Next would come considerable program hacking, complemented by hints of public service layoffs and a consistent economic doom-and-gloom message from the leader.

"Finally, at the eleventh hour, Ministers would gallop on to the stage on white steeds, proclaiming that their efficient management had meant the territory's finances were not so bleak after all."

The editorial ends on this note.

"The government will increasingly, or cynically, be viewed as either frightfully incompetent in its forecasting or downright deceptive."

That is a quote. I was not saying that myself.

Clearly, given the real NDP record, if this act - the Taxpayer Protection Act - had been enforced during the period 1985 to 1992, it would not have changed anything. The act, after all, does not require a referendum to lower taxes, as the NDP government did.

The problem that we have with the tax referendum portion of the bill is that it provides only limited opportunity for taxpayers to vote. It shows people only half of the balance sheet. If the Yukon Party wants to reassure the public that it has nothing to fear from governments like the Yukon Party, it should act responsibly when it has the chance. If it wants to encourage more direct democracy in government decision-making, it should offer people more than one side of the balance sheet.

I know that many people wanted a chance to vote on the famous budget amendment that enhanced the North Alaska Highway funding and ended any hopes that the Grey Mountain School or J.V. Clark schools would be rebuilt.

This bill is a sloppy, ill-conceived piece of window dressing. It is more a piece of propaganda to draw attention away from the poor Yukon Party record than it is a bill of substance.

The New Democrats have suggested that thoughtful, balanced budget legislation is required. It remains an outstanding obligation for this Legislature and for a new government.

Mrs. Firth: I just have a few comments to make. I had quite a bit to say during Committee of the Whole, when I proposed 10 amendments to the government. Not only did it reject all of them, a lot of the Members on the government side were, in fact, quite rude. They did not even want to hear what the amendment was, let alone debate it, or even consider it. They just kept saying: question, question, question.

The Government Leader may claim that he wanted consensus and that he wanted to consult us about the bill, but I think we could all tell from the very first meeting we had with the Government Leader that he wanted the bill to be in its original state, and that is all there was to it.

The Canadian Taxpayers Federation was instrumental in providing me with information for drafting the 10 amendments I proposed to the government. I heard the Government Leader on a radio interview one day saying that the Canadian Taxpayers Federation had drafted the amendments for me. That is absolutely untrue.

That is false and absolutely not the case at all. Unlike the government Members, I do not need someone to do my thinking or my work for me. I have a very strong philosophy to guide me, unlike the Members opposite who do not seem to have a philosophy at all, or a philosophy that can be easily compromised, especially on the eve of an election. When an election is around the corner, all of the sudden the Yukon Party believes in anything, they support anything and they will do anything as long as there is a vote in it.

Again, I want to tell the government my intentions and my desires with respect to this piece of legislation. I wanted to support the legislation and I wanted to make it better and give the government a better bill. As the Canadian Taxpayers Federation indicated, this could have been a first-class bill if the government had listened to me and accepted some of the amendments that I had proposed. I guess the government did not want a first-class bill.

I know, as well as all Yukoners, that the government does not like and does not want to listen to me, so be it.

The thing I find most outrageous about this whole charade of wanting to protect the taxpayer is the fact that this government, these fellows, imposed on Yukoners the biggest tax increase in the history of the territory.

We find out that the tax increase has filled their coffers by $40 million, and they have spent $40 million. For them to come along now and say that they are going to protect Yukoners against this kind of invasive, dictatorial activity is just astonishing. Yukoners are smarter than that and they just do not buy it. Many people in the business community have come to me saying they are just not prepared to buy the external layer of paint. "We will make it sound good. They will like this. This is trendy. This will sound great and they will forget all about the tax increase." That is not going to happen. This was the last straw for Yukoners.

I am not the least bit embarrassed to stand up now and tell the government I am not prepared to support this piece of legislation, confidence matter or no. I have made every attempt I could to try to improve the legislation, to offer constructive amendments, to participate in our having a better piece of legislation that would actually do something.

The Government Leader, for whatever reason - perhaps because he is stubborn or whatever - was not prepared to listen to anything or accept any recommendations or amendments from me.

I guess we have had a revelation in the last week about this government and its philosophy. I had been hearing all of these things from the Official Opposition about the right-wing government and its right-wing philosophy. This past weekend, we found out that it is not right-wing at all; it is middle-of-the-road. It is the centre party - them and the poor Liberal, pushing each other out of the centre of the road, as they each climb up from one ditch to go across the road to the other ditch.

So, there is no philosophy and no vision guiding this party. It has nothing to go to the polls with next time - no track record.

As I said earlier, change is on the horizon, and I think Yukoners are looking forward to that. I say no to the taxpayer protection legislation.

Mr. Cable: I had supper with a friend who provided me with a document entitled, "The Quotable Quayle." Dan Quayle was the vice-president of the United States, and he had a penchant for putting his foot in his mouth. The quotes include: "People are not homeless if they are sleeping in the streets of their own towns," and "Republicans have been accused of abandoning the poor. It is the other way around. They never vote for us." The one that I find is perhaps most pertinent is this: "Our party has been accused of fooling the public by calling tax increases 'revenue enhancement'. Not so. No one was fooled." This brings me to the Taxpayer Protection Act.

In my view, a competent government is the best protection that a taxpayer can get. No amount of legislative draftsmanship will protect taxpayers from poor government. This government raised taxes after calling tax increases "obscene" in the last election.

This government has budgeted a deficit of many millions of dollars for this year, after preaching fiscal conservatism for three years. After preaching this fiscal prudence from its gospel, it has now thrown away the book and become a fiscal heretic. This government has drawn no financial road map for the next year, or the years afterward.

As a cover, or as a bone to the voters, it has thrown up the Taxpayer Protection Act. To say that a trendy piece of legislation - of a type that has virtually no track record in Canada and mixed reviews in the United States - will provide real protection to the people is a combination of wishful thinking and sleight of hand.

One of the principles of the bill is direct voter involvement in the tax process.

Now it is strange that a populist measure promoting voter involvement was not put to the voters for discussion and involvement in the first place.

This provision sets up a sea change in the way one of the key elements of budgeting is carried out. It is a move away from conventional, representative government. Surely, some voter involvement was appropriate.

The American experience with tax referendum legislation is, at best, mixed, and some states have had problems and have had to repeal the legislation. As I mentioned, we have had virtually no Canadian experience. Yet, the government wants us to launch off into this experiment following a few hours of debate in this House.

To say that the people of the Yukon are not informed about this bill is an understatement.

I have spoken to several people who have expressed an interest in it, after it was explained, but certainly wanted a lot more information before passing judgment. After much agonizing, that is where I find myself. I want the comfort of knowing that it is the public that wants all parts of this legislation, not just the government for its own political agenda, and I do not have that comfort in the bill as it is now presented.

While I want to see proper balanced budget legislation, I will not be voting for this bill.

Speaker: If the Hon. Government Leader now speaks, he will close debate. Does any other Member wish to be heard?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: That comes as no surprise and that is why I called confidence on the bill when I spoke the first time. I was not going to get into a big election speech tonight but my colleagues on the other side of the House took advantage of the fact that we got it here and with an election coming up, they made their election speeches.

I am not going to get into a big election speech, but I am going to reply to some of the comments made by the other side.

I think it is a good piece of legislation; we know it is. The Canadian Federation of Taxpayers said it was a good piece of legislation, and the Member for Riverdale South knows that, as do the other Members on that side of the House.

For the Member for Riverdale South to call herself a right-winger is insulting the public. That is the Member who, for the last three and a half years, has caucused with the NDP, to the point where they have even shared Question Period - she was given the second question on the Order Paper the other day. This is the right-winger in the House. We know what kind of a right-winger she is.

I want to speak more in reply to some of the comments made by the Leader of the Official Opposition. I would certainly think that, after three and a half years, the Leader of the Official Opposition and his colleagues would remove themselves from the state of denial they are still in.

Everyone in the Yukon knows that they left a $64 million deficit. The Auditor General verified that. Once more, for the record, I had not even been sworn into office when I met with the Deputy Minister of Finance. His first couple of sentences were, "Mr. Ostashek, I do not have very good news for you." This was before we made any kind of decision.

Some Hon. Member: (Inaudible)

Hon. Mr. Ostashek:

The Member for Faro does not have to worry about giving that kind of speech, because he will never be on this side of the House. He need not worry about that. The Member for Faro is the representative in this Legislature who condemns the mining industry because it might put some scars on the earth while exploring for new mines. This is the Member who represents mining in the Yukon.

I am surprised that the Member opposite did not stand up in the House and suggest that the pit be filled in in Faro because it is a scar on the face of this earth.

Some Hon. Member: (Inaudible)

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: We will do that, we will make his day.

Let us take a realistic look at the track record of the Yukon Party government in financial management and not the rhetoric that we heard from the Leader of the Official Opposition, who likes to twist things around so no one understands where he is coming from.

The Yukon Party has put the Yukon on sound financial footing, something it did not have under an NDP administration.

In three and a half years, we took the territory from a $13 million debt, with all the mines shutting down because of an NDP administration, with the last of them shutting down when we took office. We kept the territory from staying in a state of depression too long. In one year we were back out of it again by good financial management.

Some Hon. Member: (Inaudible)

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: They have been denying and have been so negative about everything they have said; they do not know how to be positive.

We now have a territory that has government spending under control, has a surplus and will have a surplus at the end of this fiscal year. Yukoners enjoy some the lowest tax rates in Canada and we, in the Yukon, now enjoy a better perversity factor because of sound fiscal management by this government.

That means millions of dollars in Yukoners' pockets.

There will be an election coming shortly, and we will see whom the people of the Yukon will put their faith in.

Shall we do it tomorrow?

Some Hon. Member: (Inaudible)

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: We will let them worry a while longer.

I just want to say that I find it disheartening that the NDP would stay in a state of denial after all the evidence is put in front of it. That government was the poor fiscal manager. Now that the Members opposite sees a government that is fiscally responsible, they do not even want to support the Taxpayer Protection Act. If it had been in place in 1992 when we took office, we may not have taken over such a financial mess.

It was a total mess, a totally irresponsible management of the taxpayers' money. I had no doubts that the Members on the other side of the House would not support this legislation. It is good legislation, and that is why we called confidence on this motion. It is a bill that will protect taxpayers in the future.

Speaker: Are you prepared for the question?

Some Hon. Members: Agreed.

Some Hon. Members: Disagreed.

Speaker: Division has been called.

Division

Speaker: Mr. Clerk, would you kindly poll the House.

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: Agree.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: Agree.

Hon. Mr. Phillips: Agree.

Hon. Mr. Brewster: Agree.

Hon. Mr. Nordling: Agree.

Mr. Schafer: Agree.

Mr. Millar: Agree.

Mr. Phelps: Agree.

Mr. McDonald: Disagree.

Ms. Moorcroft: Disagree.

Ms. Commodore: Disagree.

Mr. Joe: Disagree.

Mr. Sloan: Disagree.

Mr. Harding: Disagree.

Mr. Cable: Disagree.

Mrs. Firth: Disagree.

Clerk: Mr. Speaker, the results are eight yea, eight nay.

Speaker's casting vote

Speaker: Our Standing Order 4(2) states that in the case of an equality of votes, the Speaker shall give the casting vote. In general, the principle applied to motions and bills is that decisions should not be taken except by a majority.

In this case, however, the Chair is aware that the passage of this bill is a test of confidence of the Assembly and the government. It is my view that questions of confidence are of such importance that an expression of non-confidence should be clearly stated by a majority. The Chair therefore votes for the motion.

The motion for third reading is carried, and Bill No. 73 has passed this House.

Motion for third reading of Bill No. 73 agreed to

GOVERNMENT MOTIONS

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I would request unanimous consent to waive the provisions of Standing Order 27(1) with regard to notice in order to proceed with the debate on Motion No. 119, of which the Government Leader gave notice earlier today.

Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?

All Hon. Members: Agreed.

Speaker: Unanimous consent has been granted.

Motion No. 119

Clerk: Motion 119, standing in the name of the Hon. Mr. Ostashek.

Speaker: It is moved by the Hon. Government Leader

THAT pursuant to Section 18 of the Conflict of Interest (Members and Ministers) Act, the Legislative Assembly appoint Ted Hughes as a member of the Conflict of Interest Commission for a three-year period from the date on which the Conflict of Interest (Members and Ministers) Act comes into force, and

THAT pursuant to Section 18 of the Conflict of Interest (Members and Ministers) Act, the Legislative Assembly appoint Harley Johnson as a member of the Conflict of Interest Commission for a period ending March 31, 1997, subject to a signed agreement between the Legislative Assemblies of Alberta and the Yukon, and to the Legislative Assembly of Alberta, amending section 3(1) of the Ombudsman Act, Alberta, to allow the Ombudsman of Alberta to hold an office of trust or profit, other than the Office of Ombudsman for Alberta.

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I will not bother talking about clause 1 of the motion, because there was agreement by party Leaders on the side opposite on Mr. Hughes, but I do want to speak on the appointment of the same person, who will be holding the position of the Ombudsman, as well as the position of the Conflicts Commissioner.

When we introduced this bill a little over a year ago, I mentioned at that time that we saw the same person who held the position of Ombudsman to be one of the Conflicts Commissioners.

There has been some concern raised by Members opposite that the Ombudsman is an advocate who could not fill this role. I disagree with that, because the Ombudsman is not an advocate. The role of the Ombudsman is to carry out impartial investigations into complaints the public has about the administration of government. Therefore, the Ombudsman is not an advocate.

The Conflicts Commission has a similar and complementary function: to carry out impartial investigations into allegations of conflict of interest. The responsibilities of these legislative officers, once an investigation is concluded, are governed by the legislation they operate under.

While the Ombudsman can act as a proponent for a recommendation he or she has made as a result of an impartial investigation, the Conflicts Commission is limited to making a decision on whether or not there is or was a conflict of interest. Any actions that result from that decision lie with the Legislature to make.

It is the individual who is appointed to the Conflicts Commission, not the position. In other words, the Ombudsman in his or her capacity as a member of the Conflicts Commission, would act in accordance with the requirements of the Conflict of Interest (Members and Ministers) Act and not the Ombudsman Act.

Other governments are looking at combining similar functions because of financial constraints facing governments generally. Alberta and Saskatchewan, for example, have combined the roles of the Conflicts Ethics Commissioner and Information and Privacy Commissioner. This combination of similar functions makes sense in the Yukon, given our small population and limited financial resources.

Mr. McDonald: As the Government Leader has pointed out, there appears to be agreement by most Members of the House that Mr. Hughes should sit as a member of the Conflict of Interest Commission. For that reason, I would expect that there will be no disagreement this evening, or rather this morning.

However, concern is expressed by the Official Opposition with respect to the appointment of the Ombudsman from Alberta to the Conflicts Commission. The Government Leader has made it clear that he feels the Ombudsman is not an advocate and consequently he feels therefore, by definition, the ombudsman can serve as a member of the Conflict of-Interest Commission without any trouble.

I take a different view.

From time to time, the Ombudsman will be taking tough lines with the departments in order to ensure that the public is treated fairly. When that Ombudsman takes a tough line with the departments, this person will, by extension, come into conflict from time to time with Ministers. Therefore, it would be inappropriate for these roles to be combined. It is further the case that the Ombudsman, albeit a technically competent person in their field, is not necessarily competent nor knowledgeable of the law any more than the Conflicts Commissioner is competent to act as an Ombudsman by definition.

I want to make it clear that I have nothing bad to say about the Ombudsman from Alberta, Mr. Harley Johnson. I wish him well in his job to act as the Ombudsman for the Yukon for the period of one year.

However, in many respects, he is no different from any other citizen. I was a little surprised that, if we wanted to use the Alberta connection, we would have asked an Alberta Conflicts Commissioner to sit on a Conflicts Commission in the Yukon. However, that was not suggested, nor have we given it any consideration.

We take a different view with respect to the appointment of the Alberta Ombudsman to this commission. We feel it is necessary to have good and technically competent people on the commission, so we would advocate that Mr. Hughes be appointed but we respectfully decline the notion that Mr. Johnson would act also as a commissioner.

Amendment proposed

Mr. McDonald: I move

THAT Motion No. 119 be amended by deleting all the words after "it comes into force."

Speaker: It has been moved by the Leader of the Official Opposition

THAT Motion No. 119 be amended by deleting all the words after "it comes into force."

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I was hoping that the Member for Riverside was going to get up and get his thoughts on the record.

This is an issue that has been around for a while and we have not been able to come to an agreement on it. I know that the Conflicts Commissioners have to be appointed by a two-thirds majority of this House. While my caucus feels very strongly that the Ombudsman is fully capable of fulfilling this role, we are not going to push it tonight.

We think this should be done with consensus in the Legislature, and there will be two more commissioners to appoint at some time. In the meantime we can put the bill into effect with one because of the amendment and we will leave it up to the next Legislature to deal with it how it sees fit. We will support the amendment.

Amendment agreed to

Speaker: Is there any further debate on the main motion as amended? Before putting the question, the Chair must draw the Members' attention to section 18 of the Conflict of Interest (Members and Ministers) Act. That section requires that the appointment of a member of the Conflicts Commission be supported by at least two-thirds of the Members of the Legislative Assembly present for the vote. In order to ensure that the requirements of section 18 of the Conflicts of Interest (Members and Ministers) Act are met, the Chair will now call for a recorded vote.

Division

Speaker: Everyone is here, so do we need two minutes? Mr. Clerk, would you poll the House?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: Agreed.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: Agreed.

Hon. Mr. Phillips: Agreed.

Hon. Mr. Brewster: Agreed.

Hon. Mr. Nordling: Agreed.

Mr. Schafer: Agreed.

Mr. Millar: Agreed.

Mr. Phelps: Agreed.

Mr. McDonald: Agreed.

Ms. Moorcroft: Agreed.

Ms. Commodore: Agreed.

Mr. Joe: Agreed.

Mr. Sloan: Agreed.

Mr. Harding: Agreed.

Mr. Cable: Agreed.

Mrs. Firth: Agreed.

Clerk: Mr. Speaker, the results are 16 yea, nil nay.

Motion No. 19 agreed to as amended

Unanimous consent requested to deal with Motion No. 109

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I would request unanimous consent to debate Motion No. 109. This motion was not included in the business that was earlier agreed to; therefore, I require unanimous consent.

Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?

Some Hon. Members: Agreed.

Speaker: Unanimous consent has been granted.

GOVERNMENT MOTIONS

Clerk: Motion No. 109, standing in the name of the Hon. Mr. Fisher.

Motion No. 109

Speaker: It has been moved by the Hon. Minister of Renewable Resources

THAT it is the opinion of this House that the closure of the game check stations at Mac Pass and Tungsten this year by the Government of Northwest Territories will have a significant negative economic impact on the community of Watson Lake and is contrary to the well-established tradition of intergovernmental cooperation between the two territories;

and

THAT this House urges the Government of the Northwest Territories to reconsider the offer made by the Government of Yukon to issue permits at no cost to and on behalf of the Government of the Northwest Territories out of the Yukon government offices in Watson Lake and Ross River.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I hope that some of the words that I have would reflect your feelings, Mr. Speaker.

The Government of the Northwest Territories has recently decided to close the game check stations at Macmillan Pass and Tungsten this year. The existence of these stations has allowed Yukon businesses, such as air charter companies and expediters, to assist non-resident clients on their way to and from hunts in the Northwest Territories at significant economic benefit to themselves and to the towns of Watson Lake and Ross River.

In response to these proposed closures, the Government of Yukon made the offer that Northwest Territories hunters could be issued licences and permits from the Renewable Resources offices in Watson Lake and Ross River. A similar service is provided to the B.C. government for its northern B.C. hunters. This offer was rejected by the Government of the Northwest Territories. The position of the Government of the Northwest Territories runs counter to a long, established history of cooperation between our jurisdictions on renewable resource issues. The Northwest Territories' action also appears inconsistent with the agreement on internal trade, which was signed by all provinces, territories and the Government of Canada, and came into effect on July 1, 1995.

In the agreement, all parties, including the Northwest Territories, agreed to treat the persons, services and investments of another party the same as it would treat the persons, services and investments of its own province or territory. The parties also agreed not to adopt any measure that would restrict or prevent the movement of persons, services or investments across provincial or territorial boundaries.

It is our belief that the position of the Northwest Territories is inconsistent with the spirit and intent of the agreement on internal trade. The agreement provides for a dispute resolution process, which we will be initiating to solicit compliance by the Northwest Territories and elimination of their trade restrictive practices.

The first step in the process involves direct consultation with the objective of securing voluntary compliance by the Northwest Territories. The potential for voluntary compliance by the NWT may not be that remote, particularly given the long history of cooperation between our two jurisdictions on renewable resource issues.

Examples of our cooperative efforts include - these are Yukon initiatives - Yukon parks and outdoor recreation branch purchased display space at the Inuvik visitor centre at a cost of approximately $10,000.

For Herschel Island Park, six people from the Northwest Territories are hired by the Yukon government from Inuvik and Aklavik. Also, there is an office located in Inuvik and supplies and air charters are purchased for the total annual expenditure in the order of $150,000.

Cooperative initiatives include investigations into Yukon hunters hunting in the Northwest Territories illegally and Northwest Territories hunters hunting in the Yukon illegally. Northwest Territories issues polar bear and grizzly bear tags for our department on the North Slope to Inuvialuit final agreement beneficiaries. As well, the Northwest Territories issues trapping licences and fur sealing reporting services for trappers from Fort McPherson, Aklavik and Fort Liard who trap in the Yukon. However, should the Northwest Territories be unwilling to comply, we will explore all other options available to us, which may include implementing countervailing action.

This time, and given our history of cooperation, I appeal to all Members of the House to join me in urging the NWT government to reconsider its position on the closing of these game check stations.

Mr. Harding: I do not have a long speech tonight to speak to this motion, but I would just like to say that the Official Opposition wholeheartedly endorses the motion and urges the Northwest Territories to reconsider the closure of those important game check stations. We look forward to a positive response and a continued positive working relationship with the Northwest Territories government.

Motion agreed to

Speaker: We are now prepared to receive the Administrator to grant assent to the bills that have passed this House.

Administrator enters the Chamber, announced by the Sergeant-at-Arms

ASSENT TO BILLS

Administrator: Will the Members please be seated.

Speaker: The Assembly has, at its present session, passed certain bills to which, in the name and on behalf of the Assembly, I respectfully request your assent.

Clerk: First Appropriation Act, 1996-97; An Act to Amend the Financial Administration Act; An Act to Amend the Income Tax Act; Miscellaneous Statute Law Amendment Act, 1996; An Act to Amend the Historic Resources Act; An Act to Amend the Elections Act; An Act to Amend the Controverted Elections Act; An Act to Amend the Dental Profession Act; An Act to Amend the College Act; An Act to Amend the Dog Act; An Act to Amend the Conflict of Interest (Members and Ministers) Act; Taxpayer Protection Act.

Administrator: I hereby assent to the bills as enumerated by the Clerk of the Legislature.

Speaker: I will now call the House to order.

Special Adjournement Motion

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I move

THAT the House, at its rising, do stand adjourned until it appears to the satisfaction of the Speaker, after consultation with the Government Leader, that the public interest requires that the House shall meet;

THAT the Speaker give notice that he is so satisfied, and thereupon the House shall meet at the time stated in such notice and shall transact its business as if it had been duly adjourned to that time; and

THAT, if the Speaker is unable to act owing to his illness or other causes, the Deputy Speaker shall act in his stead for the purpose of this order.

Speaker: It has been moved by the Hon. Government House Leader

THAT the House, at its rising, do stand adjourned until it appears to the satisfaction of the Speaker, after consultation with the Government Leader that

the public interest requires that the House shall meet;

THAT the Speaker give notice that he is so satisfied, and thereupon the House shall meet at the time stated in such notice and shall transact its business as if it had been duly adjourned to that time; and

THAT, if the Speaker is unable to act owing to his illness or other causes, the Deputy Speaker shall act in his stead for the purpose of this order.

Motion agreed to

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I move that the House do now adjourn.

Speaker: It has been moved by Hon. Government House Leader that the House do now adjourn.

Motion agreed to

Speaker: This House now stands adjourned.

The House adjourned at 12:40 a.m., April 26, 1996

The following Legislative Returns were tabled April 25, 1996:

96-2-108

Decentralization: positions by department decentralized since 1992-93 (Ostashek)

Oral, Hansard, p. 2824

96-2-109

Surface Rights Board and Dispute Resolution Board: status (Ostashek)

Oral, Hansard, p. 2829

96-2-110

Land Claims Secretariat: role with boards and councils regarding implementation plans (Ostashek)

Oral, Hansard, p. 2846

96-2-111

Merit increases for Executive Council Office employees: explanation (Ostashek)

Oral, Hansard, p. 2846

96-2-112

Yukon Council on the Economy and the Environment: activities since October 1992 and up to fall 1996 (Ostashek)

Oral, Hansard, p. 2847