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Yukon Legislative Assembly
Whitehorse, Yukon
Thursday, October 15, 2020 — 1:00 p.m=
.
Speaker: I w= ill now call the House to order.
We wil= l proceed at this time with prayers.
Prayers
Daily
Routine
Speaker: We = will proceed at this time with the Order Paper.
Introd= uction of visitors.
Introduction
of Visitors
Hon. Mr. Streicker: <= span lang=3DEN-CA>I would ask all Members of the Legislative Assembly to help me welcome a few folks here today. First of all, since we will be tabling the = Cannabis Yukon annual report, we have with us Mr. David Sloan and Ms. Mieke Leonard, the chair and vice-chair of the Cannabis Licensing Board.
We als= o have some terrific folks from our libraries: We have Chris = Struc, Mairi Macrae, Carman Brar, Taryn Parker, Melissa Yu Schott — the dire= ctor of libraries — and Louise Michaud — who is the assistant deputy minister responsible for libraries. Finally, we have two other very lovely people. We have my wife, Ms. Susan Walton, and we have my mother-in-law, Ms. Freda Walton — if we could welcome them all, please.
Applause
Speaker: Tri= butes.
TRIBUTES
In recognition of Global Handwashing Day
Hon. Ms. Frost: I rise in the House today on behalf of all Members of the Legislative Assembly to acknowledge this day as Global Handwashing Day.
It is = both funny and of course deadly serious that I am even doing this tribute today. A year ago, I might not have thought to make this tribute. We all took handwashing= for granted, but recent events have been a reminder of the importance of this simple yet profound public health tool. Our “safe six” response= to the COVID‑19 pandemic outlines that one of the most effective ways to stop the spread of the virus is also one of the simplest.
It is recommended that we practise effective handwashing routines, washing our ha= nds frequently with warm water and soap for at least 20 seconds. With influenza season upon us, it is crucial that we continue this practice avidly. This year’s theme, “Hand Hygiene for All”, speaks to me particularly here in the Yukon because, if there is one thing that Yukoners have shown that they are good at, it is caring for each other. I am proud of our territory and our citizens. Their collective health and safety efforts continue to keep us in a fortunate position throughout this pandemic.
Here i= n Yukon, we are fortunate to have ample access to soap and water. Today is a reminder that not everyone has been so lucky. The World Health Organization notes th= at only 60 percent of the world’s population have access to a basic handwashing facility with soap and water at home. Let us continue to use th= is fortunate position to our advantage and be vigilant in our efforts to prote= ct ourselves and our neighbours.
In clo= sing, I would like to acknowledge that something as simple as good handwashing rout= ines can save lives and thank all those who continue to practise good hand hygie= ne.
Applause
In
recognition of Canadian Library Month
Hon. Mr. Streicker: Mr. Speaker, I rise today on behalf of the Yukon L= iberal government and the Yukon NDP. It is my absolute pleasure to rise to pay tri= bute to libraries. It is my pleasure, as our libraries are so absolutely tribute-worthy.
Today = there are two things that I would like to highlight, and the first has to do with the pandemic and how much we missed our libraries.
During= the time of shutdown, staff and library friends made a little stop-motion movie call= ed Mr. Lonely Cart, which was an= d is incredibly endearing. It reflected how we missed our libraries and how the libraries were missing us back and, in a way, how we would manage getting through it together. So, a huge shout-out to Dan Bushnell and Sarah Gallagh= er — our outreach librarian, who I notice has joined us now in the galle= ry. Your little film was touching, kind, and uplifting in a time of worry ̵= 2; and a huge shout-out to the whole library family across the Yukon who make = the magic happen.
The se= cond thing that I would like to acknowledge today is a milestone that we passed a mont= h or so ago, which is of course the 60th anniversary of Dr. Seus= s’ Green Eggs and Ham. I remember = 50 years ago, at age 7, when Dr. Seuss was my favourite author. I would h= ead to Victoria Village school library and load up on Dr. Seuss books. Each week, I would take my little brother on public transit to go to his tap-dan= cing lessons, and I looked forward to it because I would take three or four Seuss books with me. I would only get through one or maybe two, but it was pure j= oy to be able to choose from so many great options.
I admi= t, Mr. Speaker, that my tastes have matured over the decades. Now my favourite childrenR= 17;s author is Oliver Jeffers. You may recognize titles like The Incredible Book Eating Boy, This Moose Belongs to Me, The Day the Crayons Quit, or Here We Are: N= otes for Living on Planet Earth.
Dr.&nb= sp;Seuss, though — I think it is fair to say — changed reading. His books spoke to kids with humour, rhyme, and thrust. Green Eggs and Ham was beguilingly written, using only 50 words — 49 of them one-syllable words and one three-syllable word.= p>
Childr= en’s literature, like our libraries, inspires pure imagination, and so I have written a Seussian poem that I would like to share:
Look a= book
Beauco= up, beaucoup de livres
Little= books and wide books and books that are tall
A book= is a book no matter how small
Books = set apart, books on the shelf
Choose= à la carte, choose for yourself
Poems = of titles, from yurts to yachts
From Y= ertle the turtle to yeses and nots
From t= he spectrum of love to the whimsies of wishes
One fi= sh, two fish, bugs and fishes
Look, = more books…
For un= cles and aunts and nephews and nieces
For wh= om the bell… Tolstoy’s War and Peace-s
Detect= ives’ perspectives, rhythms and flow
Defect= ive invectives, Oh the Places You’ll Go
Storie= s of COVID eclipsing our fun
Tales = about corvids stealing the sun
Look, = a book you can borrow
Read i= t today and return it tomorrow
One ca= rd opens up, one million possibilities
From t= hing one to thing two to a zillion infinities
And mo= re than just books there’s places to sit
You can browse, you can pause you can breathe for a minute
You ca= n have an idea and put yourself in it…
You can read it here or you can read it there,= p>
You can read it anywhere
This is a tribute to our library librarians
Bibliophiles and humble humanitarians
Look a book
Thank you, thank you Sam I am
Applause
Ms. Van Bibber: I rise today on behalf of the Official Opposition to pay tribu= te to Canadian Library Month October. One of my favorite topics: books and readin= g. I actually get a little panicky if I don’t have a pile of books that I = can access at any given time. It is so comforting to hold a book and to discover what the pages hold and to form pictures in your mind. A well-written horror story like The Stand by Stephen= King, a courtroom drama like A Time to Ki= ll by John Grisham, or a twist-and-turn thriller story like Gone Girl by Gillian Flynn — all have their own special h= old on the reader and can take you to a place that only you can feel and unders= tand at that time.
When o= ne thinks of a library, it’s always the public library that comes to mind. But there are also other interesting places to access information such as the Y= ukon Archives and the Yukon Public Library, if that’s your thing — j= ust to name a few. We are so fortunate to have such a broad network of libraries for Yukoners to access — from how-to books to research to educational resources, to historical books to the latest best-selling novels.
As tim= es change in how people get information, they use their personal devices and technolo= gy more and more. Our libraries also provide movies, e‑books, and audiob= ooks and are available to those who like these options.
This m= onth from October 6 to 30, residents in Haines Junction can stop at their public libr= ary and take part in a fun way to encourage the reading of something different — a “blind date with a book.” This is an event where one = can choose a wrapped book, then read it and complete an evaluation form for a chance to win prizes. Such fun to read a book without judging its cover.
Friend= s of the Whitehorse Public Library are hosting a book sale by donation through to October 18, so check it out if you haven’t done so yet. School librar= ies are so important as well to support student learning, to teach them how to respect books and access information if needed, and also to provide a quiet place to study. Tomorrow, October 16, is recognized as Canadian Library Wor= kers Day. We send kudos to all librarians and staff who make sure that the books= are ready for distribution, who take care of them, and who assist anyone who may need help during their library visit.
Rememb= er, the love of books and libraries is a learned behaviour, so take your children to get their library card and teach them how to borrow books. Enjoy the learni= ng experience together, read to your children, and make sure that they have ac= cess to them. It is soothing to a child to hear their favourite stories and they will have them. You will tire of reading the same story night after night, = but what fun when they correct you when you try to skip over the bits as you hu= rry up the ritual. It just can’t be done. Let’s all thank the librarians for keeping us sorted and in order.
Applause
Speaker: Are= there any returns or documents for tabling?
Tabling
Returns and Documents
Hon. Mr. Streicker: <= span lang=3DEN-CA>I have for tabling the Cannabis Yukon Annual Report for 2019‑20, pursuant to section 16 of the= Cannabis Control and Regulation Act.
Hon. Mr. Pillai: Pursuant to section 22 of the Yukon Development Corporation Act, I have for tabling the 2019 annual report = for the Yukon Development Corporation. I also have for tabling the 2019 annual report for the Yukon Energy Corporation.
Speaker: Are= there any further returns or documents for tabling?
Are th= ere any reports of committees?
Are th= ere any petitions to be presented?
Are th= ere any bills to be introduced?
Are th= ere any notices of motions?
Notices
of Motions
Mr. Adel: I rise today to give notice of the following motion:
THAT t= his House supports the COVID‑19 call centre in response to the COVID‑19 pandemic.
Ms. Hanson: I rise to give notice of the following motion:
THAT t= he Chair of the Standing Committee on Rules, Elections and Privileges convene a meet= ing prior to the end of the 2020 Fall Sitting to consider the recommendations m= ade by the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly on February 28, 2020.<= /p>
Ms. White: I rise to give notice of the following motion:
THAT t= his House urges the Government of Yukon to introduce species at risk legislation.
Speaker: Are= there any further notices of motions?
Is the= re a statement by a minister?
Ministerial
Statement
Cannabis
legalization update
Hon. Mr. Streicker: <= span lang=3DEN-CA>I rise to provide an update on cannabis and the progress that = the Yukon has made over the last two years since legalization.
Our fi= rst private licence was issued to Triple J’s Canna Space a year and a half ago, in April 2019. We now have five private retail licensees serving the territory. Phase 2 products, such as edibles and extracts, were legalized a= nd launched this past winter.
In the= Yukon, between October 17, 2018 and August 31, 2020, the corporation sold approximately $9.25 million in cannabis.
Compar= ing per capita legal sales, the Yukon has outperformed all other Canadian jurisdictions. This includes when we began with the government-run store on= ly, while we were operating as a hybrid with government and private retail, and over the past year, when it has been private retail only for brick-and-mort= ar stores.
Accord= ing to Statistics Canada, our Yukon private retail is outselling Saskatchewan by 6= 5 percent, our sales are twice those of the Northwest Territories and 4.5 times Ontari= o on a per capita basis. So, hats off to our private retail sector.
Yukon&= #8217;s transition to a legal retail cannabis market has been a journey, with hard = work from the corporation’s staff, the Cannabis Licensing Board, and Yukon’s cannabis licensees. Thanks also to the original government st= ore staff, who helped introduce, inform, and guide Yukoners safely to the legal= cannabis market.
Over t= he past year and a half, private licensees have been providing quality cannabis service, which has helped to displace the illicit market. When cannabis was legalized in October 2018, displacing the black market was one of two main goals.
The bl= ack market was well-established. There were concerns with legal supply, price, and quality. However, after a lot of hard work by the sector, we are seeing dividends. Canadian producers have worked to meet demand and increase the quality of their products, while also reducing their prices.
Phase = two offered consumers a large variety of cannabis products that were up until t= hen only available on the illicit market. The Yukon was one of the first jurisdictions in Canada to have access to phase two products. To date, Yukon cannabis licensees have access to over 150 cannabis products from 12 differ= ent licensed producers.
With s= upply and the variety of products increasing and prices decreasing, we are seeing leg= al cannabis sales trend higher in the Yukon and across Canada, and we know that this is displacing more and more of the illicit market.
In Aug= ust 2020, Statistics Canada reported that the estimated expenditure for illegal canna= bis is at a multi-year low, and spending on legal cannabis in the second quarte= r of 2020 outpaced the illicit market for the first time. This is a significant milestone in legalization.
Here i= n the Yukon, cannabis sales increased by almost $3 million over the past fis= cal year. This increase was due in part to the growth in private retail license= es, consistent supply, new cannabis products, and consumers switching from the illicit market to the legal market.
Mr.&nb= sp;Speaker, the past two years since legalization have gone by quickly. Our Liberal government’s approach to cannabis legalization is working as planned.=
Once a= gain, I would like to thank the staff at the Yukon Liquor Corporation and the tremendous efforts of our cannabis licensees for making this year a success, even during these difficult times.
Thank = you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Istchenko: We are pleased to speak to the two-year anniversary of the legalization of cannabis. The Yukon Party has taken a position that the private sector shou= ld be responsible for the distribution and retail sale of cannabis in the Yuko= n.
So, wh= ile the government has said that they want to get the government out of the busines= s, in the case of cannabis, they have inserted government right in the middle = of the business. They have granted themselves a monopoly on the distribution of cannabis in the Yukon and thus inserted government directly in the middle of the supply chain. This means that the private retailers cannot deal directly with suppliers and distributors of cannabis products. The private sector ha= s to rely on the government agency to negotiate supply agreements with cannabis producers. Local retailers cannot access products from producers directly. = As anyone from the private sector would understand, this government involvement prevents the normal relationship between a producer and a retailer. Retaile= rs can’t go out and seek new producers, establish business-to-business relationships with distributors or producers, or seek exclusive distribution agreements that are common in much of the retail sector.
This h= as had a negative impact on product availability in the Yukon. Anyone who has seen t= he diversity of product available in a retail store in the south or in the US = will notice a lack of product diversity in the Yukon. This is no fault of the lo= cal retailers, but the unfortunate speed of government.
A perf= ect example of this is cannabis beverages. Beverages have become a common way t= hat legal cannabis users enjoy their product. But here in the Yukon, retailers can’t keep beverages on the shelf. This is because a government-run cannabis distributor can’t keep pace with a private business. While we must give credit for some of the improvements in the availability of certain product lines, the fundamental problem still remains that government has inserted itself in this critical position of the cannabis supply chain that= is much better suited for the private sector.
Another problematic aspect of the government role in the cannabis business is their impact on the price. The minister has said that we have made strides in cut= ting into the black market, but we know that there is still a very robust black market in the Yukon — in fact, we would be interested to hear from the minister when he gets back on his feet about how he calculates how much he = has reduced the black market. We believe that the only way the black market wil= l be substantially reduced in the Yukon is if the legal market can compete on pr= ice. With current government markups set where they are now, that is simply impo= ssible. If we truly want to displace the black market, we need to give the private sector the tools to do it. We need to increase product availability, they n= eed lower prices, and they need modern sales channels like online and remote options.
This g= overnment is standing in the way of all those things with their flawed Liberal big-government approach.
Ms. White: Although Canada has come a long way since it legalized cannabis, there is farther th= at we can go. The minister focuses on recreational cannabis, but the Yukon NDP believe that we should also talk about medical cannabis. What support does = this government offer those who have a cannabis prescription and are using it for health reasons and not recreationally?
The te= rm “medical cannabis” is used to describe products derived from the whole cannabis plant or its extracts, containing a variety of active cannabinoids and terpenes, which patients take for medical reasons after interacting with and obtaining authorization from their health care practitioner.
Patien= ts taking cannabis for medical reasons generally use cannabinoids to alleviate sympto= ms while minimizing intoxication, whereas recreational users may be taking cannabis for euphoric effects. Medical cannabis is authorized by a prescrib= er who provides a medical document allowing individuals to obtain it from a licensed producer or apply to Health Canada to grow their own. Medical cann= abis in Canada is pricey, and it is hard to access. Patients are required to pay full price without any help from their insurance companies, unlike other antidepressants or painkillers. This is because medical cannabis does not h= ave a drug identification number.
So, wh= at work is being done by this government in conjunction with the federal government to ensure that those requiring medical cannabis are able to have it covered un= der extended health benefits?
Hon. Mr. Streicker: My recollection of the Official Opposition, the Yukon P= arty, was that they were unsure about whether or not they would support cannabis. They talked a lot about it being grey — uncertain about whether they should or should not support the legalization. That is what I heard during = all of our debate here in the Legislature.
I am h= appy that they now support legalized cannabis. That’s great — although no= w it sounds like they are saying that we shouldn’t control it, even noting that it’s an intoxicant. Well, sorry — our two chief goals here have been, all along, to displace the black market and to support the health and wellness of Yukoners. Like alcohol, it is a controlled substance, and we will continue to control it. Unlike alcohol, we are not selling it as a government; it is only private retail.
That m= odel, by the way, is what we stood up and announced that we would do, which the opposition said would never happen. It has happened, and it is going very w= ell because — as it turns out — the Yukon is doing the best in Cana= da, but apparently that is not good enough, even compared to those jurisdictions where they have chosen to give over to the private sector the control of an intoxicant. Okay, that is the choice of Saskatchewan — but as I point= ed out, we are doing 65 percent better than Saskatchewan in sales.
It is = not me who is claiming that the black market is being displaced; rather, I give the cr= edit to our private licensees, to the Yukon Liquor Corporation, to the board, an= d to all those who have been involved. It is not up to me, but I am here to repo= rt on it. The statistic that I use, Mr. Speaker, is the fact that usage h= as not gone up in all of our measurements.
I won&= #8217;t say that it’s as robust as we would like, but every data point that I have says that cannabis usage is pretty much the same — except, as Statistics Canada is reporting, the one demographic where there is a slight increase in usage turns out to be seniors, which turns to the point from the Third Party, which is that seniors look at cannabis as helping more with ailments.
As the= Minister responsible for the Liquor Corporation, I am not going to talk about the ro= le of our Health and Social Services minister, but I will say that we’re happy to work alongside of Canada and talk with the federal government about medical cannabis.
One mo= re point that I will add: I continue to direct the Liquor Corporation and was inform= ed as of today still that our target is to have a zero balance. We are not try= ing to earn any revenue for the government through cannabis. Our goal is for it= to be revenue-neutral from a government perspective. The reason is that we want all profits to go toward the private sector, and we want to try to keep the price as low as possible. We’ll continue that work.
Speaker: Thi= s then brings us to Question Period.
QUESTION PERIOD
Question re: Cannab= is retail sales
Mr. Hassard: As we all know, many businesses have been hit by this pandemic. Many businesse= s in the retail sector have seen reductions in sales. This is also true for the cannabis sector. In an effort to assist local cannabis retailers, the government issued an order that allowed for the remote sales of cannabis on= line. This measure was well-received by local businesses, as it gave them a new channel to generate sales and gave them a way to safely offer their products throughout this economic lockdown.
Much t= o the disappointment of these businesses though, the Liberals abruptly shut down = the ability of businesses to do this in September. Can the minister tell us why= he cancelled this measure that was helping Yukon businesses navigate the challenges of staying afloat during this pandemic?
Hon. Mr. Streicker: <= span lang=3DEN-CA>I’m going to rise as the Minister of Community Services, because it’s my responsibility under that role regarding ministerial orders. I would like to thank the members opposite for their very first question on ministerial orders. I’m excited to have this. I know that they asked.
Over t= he summer, we offered to come into this Legislature to answer all questions on ministe= rial orders. It wasn’t an offer that was taken up by the members opposite,= but I’m happy to say that now, today, we have our first question. I’= ;m not sure, but I think we’re on day 8 or 9. That’s great.=
I̵= 7;m not sure though — in the question from the Leader of the Official Opposit= ion, he is now saying we shouldn’t have cancelled the ministerial order. In other words, all the questions to date have been that we shouldn’t ha= ve been putting in place ministerial orders because they were inappropriate. B= ut now I’m hearing that what we should have been doing is not cancelling them.
I̵= 7;m happy to get up and talk about why we chose to drop this one — and I support the private sector, as I have just stood in this Legislature and said ̵= 2; and I will be happy to answer why.
Mr. Hassard:&= #8195;It doesn’t sound like the minister really is all that in favour of helpi= ng those local businesses.
Anyway= , allowing online sales for local cannabis retailers provided an opportunity to mitiga= te the impacts of the pandemic on these businesses. For the summer months, loc= al retailers were allowed to sell their products online. Then, without debate = or discussion, the Liberals abruptly ended this opportunity for these business= es. What is not lost on many in the private sector is that, while private retail stores were forbidden from selling their products online, the Yukon governm= ent was not. The government-run cannabis online store continues to allow Yukon citizens to select product online. So the Liberal government is directly competing against the private sector.
So why= does the minister allow the government store to sell cannabis online but not these p= rivate retailers?
Hon. Mr. Streicker: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, although I will switch bac= k and forth.
First = of all, Mr. Speaker, online sales for cannabis have been $25,000 compared to brick-and-mortar sa= les of $1.3 million. It’s a very, very small portion. This has been = to allow our remote communities — to make sure that they have access; that’s all.
We thi= nk it is a great idea. In fact, I stood up in the media and said that we do believe th= at this is a great idea. The thing though is that we believe that it shouldn= 8217;t happen under a pandemic rule.
When w= e brought the order in place, it was because at first we were concerned about lineups= at our stores and we wanted to make it easier so that people could order online and just come in and pick up so that we would allow for physical spacing. L= ater on, after we entered through various phases, we saw that it was getting saf= er and safer for Yukoners to be in stores, so we felt that it was inappropriat= e to continue to use the pandemic to bring in an order. We only want those orders that are going to support Yukoners though a health and safety perspective a= nd only those that are necessary because we don’t want to overexert our authority; that’s why. But it is a great idea. I have said this to the private sector. I know that the department is working with private retailers and I’m happy to talk about ways to bring this back in through a prop= er process.
Mr. Hassard:&= #8195;It is unfortunate that the Liberal government’s flawed legislation broug= ht forward two years ago prevents the private sector from doing what the government-run retail store is allowed to. We would obviously like to see t= his legislation changed, as would the businesses.
So wil= l the minister commit to making legislative changes to allow for private retailer= s to sell product online, just like the government store does?
Hon. Mr. Streicker: There is no bricks-and-mortar government store; it clos= ed one year ago. That’s what happened. We said that it was going to close an= d we got it done in the first year — again, thanks to all those staff who helped to introduce cannabis to the Yukon. The private retail is doing a gr= eat job.
Am I c= ommitted to work with them to bring forward the ability for them to have online orde= rs? Yes, I am.
I have= stood up in the public and I have said it; I will say it here again today. But of course, we want to work through our normal regulatory channels to do that w= ork where we engage more widely and where we take the time to make sure that it works with the existing act.
Question
re: Many Rivers Counselling and Support Services
Ms. McLeod:= 8195;Yukoners who utilized Many Rivers Counselling and Support Services followed closely = the events of 2018 and 2019 when there were questions about the finances of Many Rivers. The last we heard on this issue was in October 2019, when the minis= ter in charge told a media scrum outside the Legislative Assembly that she would not be ordering a forensic audit. On October 25, 2019, the minister was quoted in the Yukon News as say= ing: “The only time you can trigger a forensic audit and bring in the RCMP= is when there’s criminal wrongdoing…” She went on to say, “The Third Party audit did not find criminal behaviour and, therefore, there wouldn’t be a forensic audit.” This is why, on Tuesday th= is week, it was interesting to hear the Premier say that Many Rivers was now u= nder a forensic audit.
Can th= e Minister of Health and Social Services tell us when the forensic audit began?=
Hon. Ms. McPhee: The situation involving Many Rivers and the investigation therein continues. The determination to undertake an investigation — and, in this instance, including a forensic audit — is in the jurisdiction, of course, of the RCMP — perhaps not “of course”, based on the question. = span>
The Go= vernment of Yukon is fully cooperating with the RCMP in this investigation, Mr. = ;Speaker, and as the matter is under investigation by the RCMP, the Government of Yuk= on will not be providing further comment. It would not be appropriate to do so. That investigation is continuing.
Ms. McLeod: The question was whether or not the Minister of Health and Social Services could tell us when the forensic audit began.
On Tue= sday of this week, the Premier said — and I quote: “Mental health servi= ces have been expanded from one NGO — now under police investigation̷= 0;” As stated, the Minister said in October of last year that there was no fore= nsic audit but that it now sounds like something may have changed since that time and there is some sort of police investigation.
Can th= e Minister of Health and Social Services tell us what changed between October of last = year when there was not going to be a forensic audit and this week when the Prem= ier told us that there was a police investigation?
Hon. Ms. McPhee: I am not sure that the member opposite understands that, if we= were to discuss this in any way, that could improperly infringe on the investiga= tion that is ongoing. The investigation is ongoing. The RCMP are leading it. The government is fully cooperating and the same question was asked twice ̵= 2; fine; I have no trouble responding in the same way.
The ma= tter is under investigation by the RCMP. They have determined that it warrants an investigation. Whatever that investigation determines will be made known eventually by the RCMP, and the matter will continue.
Ms. McLeod: Can or will the minister tell us if the Government of Yukon — if any Government of Yukon documents, records, or files — have been included= as part of the investigation and forensic audit that the Premier referenced in this House on Tuesday? If so, what is the nature of those records?= p>
Hon. Ms. Frost: I think that this is a great opportunity to talk about the ser= vices that we are providing for Yukoners. Clearly, the member opposite is aware t= hat I am not required and not able to speak to the specifics, but I will talk a= bout the great work of mental wellness supports across the Yukon. We have initia= ted correspondence early on and made arrangements to ensure that all sectors of= our society are supported, including our LGBTQ2S+ community and those who requi= re supports who may not have historically been supported. We have supports for our rural communities. We had two counsellors under their watch — and the membe= rs opposite perhaps know that — and we now have 22. We have mental welln= ess hubs. We have supports across the Yukon. That is what Yukoners need to know= .
I̵= 7;m not going to speak on the floor of the Legislative Assembly about a matter that’s under review. The Minister of Justice has spoken very clearly = to that and I will speak about the exceptional work of the department to respo= nd appropriately to Yukoners to ensure that they are well served and well supported in all sectors of our community, including rural Yukon communitie= s.
Question
re: Affordable childcare
Ms. Hanson: Yukon families have been promised universal childcare twice over the last three months — first by the Premier and then by the Minister of Health and Social Services. If this government is serious about following the Putting People First recommendatio= ns, it can start by taking action now on steps to implement a better childcare sys= tem in Yukon.
The Putting People First report said t= hat the first step is to move early childhood education from the Department of Health and Social Services to the Department of Education. I quote: “= This should not be a difficult task for the Yukon government…” The Premier and his ministers need to move from talking about universal childca= re to acting on it.
Will t= he Premier confirm that he has directed the Minister for Health and Social Services and the Minister of Education to work to move early childhood education from the Department of Health and Social Services to the Department of Education?
Hon. Ms. Frost: I certainly recognize that high-quality early learning opportu= nities are a key priority to improve long-term outcomes for children in all aspect= s of education and development. We indicated that we would look at suggestions a= nd recommendations of the independent expert panel, Putting People First, to work with the Department of Education = and the Department of Health and Social Services. We are currently doing that. =
Ms. Hanson: In response to our question on Monday, the minister said that universal afford= able early childhood education needs to wait until Yukon is aligned with other jurisdictions. Why the Yukon government needs to wait on other jurisdictions when we have the ability to make changes to our childcare policy is bafflin= g. Both BC and Québec made changes without waiting for Ottawa to tell t= hem how. They prioritized the needs of their citizens and their children instea= d of stalling on such an important policy. Yukoners deserve to know when this is going to happen.
Is this government seriously saying that it will not take any steps to develop affordable and accessible universal childcare until Ottawa gives the green light?
Hon. Ms. Frost: Let me correct the record. What we are doing with respect to investing in children — we know that surely, we have to look at engagement with all of our stakeholders. We are looking at best practices across the country. The federal government just made an announcement last w= eek around universal child care. We have committed to doing that. Putting People First — the independent expert panel — recommends that we proceed that way, and t= hat is exactly what we are doing.
Over t= he last three years, we have increased early learning childcare through a multi-year funding agreement with the federal government. We have significantly increa= sed our direct operating grants. We have significantly increased supports in funding to the NGO community — which has not been supported historica= lly. We have created pilot projects. We have integrated cultural integrity, humi= lity training, and safety training among all of our daycares.
I am r= eally happy and pleased to say that the daycare in Watson Lake is working with the Dawson City Little Blue Daycare, which in turn is working on a successful project with the Haines Junction child care centre — which integrates language, by the way — and I want to just acknowledge all of the supporters and acknowledge the child care centres, the operators, and our stakeholders for doing such a great job moving forward on child care needs.=
Ms. Hanson: Having announced universal early childhood education not once but twice in the last three months, this government has a responsibility to follow through.
Univer= sal affordable child care has in fact been a recurring topic in Canada for many years now, but Ottawa never followed through. Meanwhile, the cost to parent= s is continuing to go up. A lack of affordable, quality child care means that ma= ny women are unable to rejoin the workforce. It appears that this government is following Ottawa’s playbook — promising but never delivering on those promises.
Can th= e Premier tell this House when the Putting Pe= ople First recommendations on universal, accessible, affordable child care w= ill be implemented?
Hon. Ms. Frost: I would say that we have committed and we will follow through.= Yes, we made the announcement. The Premier has indicated and advised that we must proceed, and the communities have advised that we proceed this way. It is always about ensuring that those in our community who are not able to finan= ce or able to live to a certain standard to provide services to their children — of course, universal child care is a priority, and we will implement that. There is no going back on that. We are moving forward full steam and = we are currently in the process of negotiating and we are also consulting. I’m sure that the members opposite would not know what that means bec= ause they haven’t done a very effective job of working with the communitie= s on ensuring that supports were given equally to the NGO communities, including= the daycare in Watson Lake, the daycare in Dawson City, and the daycares in our indigenous communities.
We are equalizing, and we are providing equitable, fair, transparent support for a= ll of our communities, because all of Yukon matters.
Question
re: Midwifery legislation
Ms. White:= 195;Midwives provide invaluable care to expectant mothers, babies, and their families. Y= ukon is one of two jurisdictions in Canada that doesn’t have a funded and regulated midwifery. The Liberals promised to fix this. In 2017, the govern= ment said that it would be done — and I quote: “… later n= ext year”.
Midwif= ery is an example of a commitment and a lack of follow-through. Four years into its mandate, this government has yet to deliver. When will midwifery be funded = and regulated in Yukon?
Hon. Mr. Streicker: I would like to acknowledge that midwifery is important= and that we remain committed. We are further back than we intended to be becaus= e it has been a complicated file. I think that it is our responsibility to conti= nue moving on.
I know= that when COVID first hit, there was a conversation from some of the stakeholders that they wanted more time, and we said, “Well, look, we really need to ke= ep this moving.” We are committed to moving forward.
My job= in the role of Community Services is the regulatory aspect of midwifery, and we ha= ve taken a phased approach to the integration of midwifery services in the Yuk= on with the establishment of full midwifery services in Whitehorse as a first priority. Once the program is up and running, we will then look at how midw= ives can best provide services in our Yukon communities.
We kno= w that there has been a great deal of work that has been done by midwives, by our doctors, and by the public as stakeholders to move forward in establishing a sustainable and safe midwifery program in the Yukon.
I am h= appy to answer further as we get further questions.
Ms. White:= 195;Government inaction means that, four years into their mandate, midwifery is still not regulated or funded despite the ongoing commitment. This means that families that can’t afford to pay out of their own pocket don’t have acc= ess to the health care they need. It also means that Yukon is losing qualified midwives at a time when jurisdictions across the country are already strugg= ling to recruit enough of them. A midwife who recently chose to practise in a different jurisdiction told us that she made that choice because, unlike in Yukon, her work is honoured and respected, and she gets to work with all families who want her services, not just those who can pay.
Does t= he minister realize that this government’s inaction on midwifery is havi= ng an impact on both families and midwives?
Hon. Ms. Frost: Our government remains committed to moving forward with the integration of funded and regulated midwifery services in the Yukon health = care system. We are very thankful for the ongoing support and time given to this work from the physicians, the Community Midwifery Association Yukon, the Yu= kon Hospital Corporation, and the Yukon Registered Nurses Association, among ma= ny others. The successful implementation of midwifery will take the support of= all of our health care providers and we look forward to continuing this work wi= th them. We are taking a phased approach to the integration of midwifery servi= ces in the Yukon, with the establishment of full midwifery services in Whitehor= se as a first priority.
Once t= he program is up and running, we will then look at how midwives can best practise in Y= ukon communities. We are proceeding with that right now, Mr. Speaker. We ha= ve proceeded with the competition, which concluded. So I am happy to say that = we have moved in that direction despite the fact that we are still waiting for legislation.
So we = are moving, and we are committed. We are going above and beyond to ensure that = we meet the needs of Yukoners with respect to the services that they have aske= d us for, which is ensure that we provide midwifery services to all of our communities.
Ms. White: Actions speak louder than words, and again, all we are getting from this government= on midwifery are words. Advocates for midwifery have spent years engaging with this government. They have showed resolve and an incredible amount of patie= nce. We are four years into this government’s mandate and midwifery is sti= ll not regulated or funded. The minister can say that it is an important issue= and that it is a priority, but their track record says otherwise.
With C= OVID‑19 limiting birth choices in a hospital setting, demand for midwives has incre= ased internationally. Having properly funded and regulated midwifery in Yukon wo= uld have helped many families during this pandemic. This government’s man= date is coming to an end.
Will t= he Premier commit to ensuring that midwifery is regulated and funded before the next election?
Hon. Ms. Frost: I want to just confirm and acknowledge that we are committed to midwifery in the Yukon. We have the resources and we are moving in that direction. As we speak, that is actually what is happening. We have a posit= ion that we have just recruited for. We have other opportunities for which we h= ave reached out to the community about. At the same time, we need to wait for regulations so that we can work with the medical association so that we can have access to the hospitals. Despite that, we are moving ahead.
We are= in consultation with our communities, Mr. Speaker. I am happy to say that= we will continue to do that good work and I am happy to say that we are listen= ing to our stakeholder groups — all of them.
Question
re: Macaulay Lodge closure
Ms. Van Bibber: The Macaulay Lodge building has sat empty for a number of years now, with offic= ials from Highways and Public Works doing regular maintenance and checks, awaiti= ng a plan for the government on the building’s future. A story done by CKR= W in May of last year found that no firm decision had been made. A follow-up sto= ry that aired on CKRW this morning quotes a department official saying that the building can no longer be repurposed and that there are two options: tear d= own the building and construct something new or sell the land.
Can th= e minister tell us what the plan is for Macaulay Lodge?
Hon. Mr. Mostyn: I’m happy to talk about this issue on the floor of the Legislature this afternoon. Highways and Public Works is conducting a future-use analysis for Macaulay Lodge in collaboration with the Department= of Health and Social Services. Highways and Public Works completed a building condition assessment in the spring of 2020 that confirmed that the current facility is not suitable for repurposing. Upgrades required to critical envelope and safety systems make the option of repurposing cost prohibitive= .
At thi= s time, it’s too expensive to fix to use again.
Ms. Van Bibber: As I mentioned, since residents moved out of the building in t= he fall of 2018, the department has been doing basic upkeep. The CKRW story th= is morning revealed that some hazmat work has also been done. However, as note= d by many Riverdale residents, a family of foxes has moved in under the west sid= e of the structure. Can the minister tell us how much has been spent on the upke= ep of the building to date, and what is being done to address the animal situation?
Hon. Mr. Mostyn: I heard the member opposite talk about hazmat suits, or hazmat= , and I will say, Mr. Speaker, that hazardous materials are evident througho= ut the facility, and should a change in occupancy be considered, code improvements, hazmat removal, and structural upgrades will be required.
At the= moment, two options for the future use of the site include: selling the property, or demolishing the facility and building a new structure to accommodate govern= ment program needs. That’s really what we’re looking at — whet= her to sell it or repurpose it or to demolish it, keep the land, and build something else there.
Ms. Van Bibber: As we are well aware, all types of land are scarce in Whitehor= se right now. While the focus is on the development of Whistle Bend, the city = has been working on infill over the years and I am sure it will be discussed as part of the development of official community plans. New construction on in= fill lots cuts down on the need to build entirely new water and sewer infrastructure.
The no= w-closed lodge is on a prime piece of Riverdale land close to schools, transit, and a grocery store. With the lack of housing in the city, will the government lo= ok at selling it to a private developer to be used for more residential housin= g?
Hon. Mr. Streicker: <= span lang=3DEN-CA>The Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources stood yesterday, I believe, to answer a similar type of question. First of all, we work in partnership with all of our municipalities. We ask that they lead first by planning and by telling us, through their official community plans, where t= hey would like to see development, including infill. So, it isn’t for us — I think the Minister of Highways and Public Works has just stated t= hat there is some work that he’s going to be doing with Health and Social Services. But anytime that land is going to become available, we are in conversation with — in this case — the City of Whitehorse.
We wor= k closely with the planning department around how to repurpose land. We have examples going where we are working parcels — significantly sized parcels R= 12; that could go straight over to the private sector. The Premier has tasked me with exploring that option.
At the= same time, my purpose is to ensure that we have an adequate supply of lots being developed. I work on both of those fronts, so it’s “yes” = to bringing the private sector on board and also to working with First Nations — noting that they are starting to develop land, and we will continue= to work with them as well.
Question
re: Mining working group mandates
Mr. Ke=
nt: At the conclusion of the =
Yukon
Forum on October 2, a news release issued updates on the Yukon Forum working
groups. One of these was an update on the mining file. I share this informa=
tion
with many in the industry, so what I’m looking for today is some
additional information.
According to the release, a new joint
working group for the management of on-claim roads was established. I’=
;m
wondering if the minister can update us on the mandate of this working grou=
p.
Hon. M=
r. Pillai: We have a number of worki=
ng
groups and it is usually priorities that are identified between both the Yu=
kon
government and our technical teams who work at the memorandum-of-understand=
ing
table — that’s our MOU table.
As Yuk= oners may remember, in January 2017, all self-governing First Nations identified the = fact that they wanted to work together with us. Then in turn — something t= hat I think was quite ground-breaking — was the signing of an agreement between all 11 First Nations and the Yukon government.
Since = then, we have worked on a number of issues — whether it be water quality, identifying some of the challenges that come with road infrastructure, look= ing at reclamation, and following through as well on commitments that the Yukon Party made but didn’t fulfill around class 1. There are a number of pieces of work that we have done and we continue to do at that particular table.
Mr. Kent: So, as I mentioned off the top in my first question, I am just looking for some updates and some information that I can share with those in the industry who have taken an interest in this specific release, after the October 2 Yukon Forum.
The fi= rst question was about the mandate of the working group for the management of on-claim roads. The second question also involves the release that there is also a new joint working group for compliance monitoring and enforcement.= span>
Can th= e minister update us on the mandate of this working group? Are changes being contempla= ted to the way enforcement and monitoring are conducted, and would these change= s be for hard rock or placer or both? Hopefully in this one, he can also answer = that question that he missed in the first one about the on-claim roads working g= roup as well.
Hon. Mr. Silver: I apologize to the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources. Hopefully he will get up for the third answer, but I do want to expand on t= he Yukon Forum and the great work that has been done through that forum.
The me= mbers have approved a set of joint priority lists — so just a little bit of expansion of the good work that is happening there: signing of an agreement= to clarify how resource royalties will be shared under chapter 23 in the final agreements — a really important endeavour for the industry; and an advanced mining memorandum of understanding — as explained — including the establishment of progressive reclamation working groups; as of April 2020, we now require notification and review of all class 1 mineral exploration programs — and of course the minister can speak to that; implementation of the representative public service plan — Breaking Trail Together — excellent work government-to-government; we have made significant progress = on Yukon First Nation procurement policy — more to come on that very soo= n; the review of the Yukon Fish and Wildlife Management Board to create improvements that will ensure that it continues to be an effective and crit= ical component of the agreements and management of fish and wildlife; signing a memorandum of understanding to manage heritage; creating a new joint senior executive committee — JSEC — to support a whole-of-government approach to collaboration to ensure that the federal government has a more unified and strategic way of engaging at Yukon Days in Ottawa — and m= any more.
Mr. Kent:Q= 95;So these questions, I thought, were relatively straightforward, but unfortunat= ely the record today is going to reflect that so far the minister and the Premi= er are 0 for 2 on answering these questions about working groups that were announced after the October 2 Yukon Forum.
Mr.&nb= sp;Speaker, I will try again. Hopefully we get some answers to the first two questions,= but I do have another one here in this final supplementary.
The Yu= kon Mineral Development Strategy Panel has been consulting with groups on what changes they would like to see to the way that we manage and develop resour= ces, and their recommendations are expected later this year. Can the minister describe how these working groups interface with the Yukon Mineral Developm= ent Strategy Panel and its work? Is this part of the process, or is it in addit= ion to it? Perhaps, at some point today, we will get answers to the other two questions that I asked as well.
Quite simply, as we said, the on-claim roads working group is = just focused on developing recommendations related to the construction, operatio= n, and decommissioning of roads on mining claims that are not covered by resou= rce road regulations. That’s quite simple — exactly as it says.
The ne= xt one was about compliance monitoring and enforcement. It’s focused on sharing information and developing recommendations related to how the Yukon governm= ent and First Nation governments can better share information and collaborate on compliance monitoring — one, two.
As for= this group, what we have asked in every case — whether it be the Yukon Cha= mber of Mines, the MMOU table, the Yukon Minerals Advisory Board — whatever they are working on, whatever their recommendations, whatever their priorit= ies are, please ensure that you reach out to the mineral development strategy table. They have done a fantastic job — all three individuals —= to go out and get that work.
You wi= ll remember that another one — start and stop — was way back a num= ber of years ago when the previous government announced that the mineral development strategy was underway, there was a big splash right before Roun= dup, and then it evaporated. What we did was that we went back we actually had F= irst Nation governments come to us and say that they wanted to do this work in collaboration. It is very important that all of these priorities, again, get shared with this group, and then we will have an opportunity to read that report in the near future and discuss it.
Speaker: The= time for Question Period has now elapsed.
We wil= l now proceed to Orders of the Day.
Orders of
the Day
Hon. Ms. McPhee: I move that the Speaker do now leave the Chair and that the House resolve into Committee of the Whole.
Speaker: It = has been moved by the Government House Leader that the Speaker do now leave the Chair and that the House resolve into Committee of the Whole.
Motion agreed to
Speaker leaves the Chair
Committee
of the Whole
Chair (Mr. Hutton): Order, please. Committee of the Whole will now come to order.<= /span>
The ma= tter before the Committee is continuing general debate on Vote 15, Department of Health and Social Services, in Bill No. 204, entitled Fourth Appropriation Act 2019‑20.
Do mem= bers wish to take a brief recess?
All Hon. Members: Agreed.
Chair: Commi= ttee of the Whole will recess for 15 minutes.
Recess
Chair: Commi= ttee of the Whole will now come to order.
Bill
No. 204: Fourth Appropriation =
Act 2019‑20
— continued
Chair:̳=
5;The matter before Committ=
ee is
continuing general debate on Vote 15, Health and Social Services, in Bill
No. 204, entitled Fourth
Appropriation Act 2019‑20.
Ms. Frost, you have eight minutes=
and
20 seconds.
Department =
of Health
and Social Services — continu=
ed
Hon. M= s. Frost: I would like to start whe= re I left off on the last day, where we were with respect to the programs and supports that we are currently providing for Yukoners. The fact is that we = have looked at extensive supports, and the supplementary budget of $2.546 m= illion really reflects on our commitment to Yukoners — our commitment that we have created, and we will continue to build on those strong, respectful partnerships.
We are= working to improve the health and well-being of Yukoners in all aspects of our soci= ety. We know that Yukon’s most vulnerable people have been underserved for years, which is why we have expanded the services at the Whitehorse Emergen= cy Shelter and opened the territory’s first Housing First project. These= important projects have been successful because we are working with all levels of government and stakeholders.
Recogn= izing that supporting Yukoners is an issue that concerns our whole society and all lev= els of decision-making, our government believes that the best way to care for Yukoners is by integrating our health care services, by offering health care that considers the whole person, the situation and supports as well as their physical health. We make sure that we can access the services that they nee= d to be healthy.
Our go= vernment will be implementing the recommendations of Putting People First, creating a road map of a people-centred approach to health and wellness, which is more effective and more sustainable going forward. We know that all Yukon communities matter; they matter very much. The comments that were in general debate — I would like to maybe go there for a mi= nute just with respect to the Whitehorse Emergency Shelter.
There = were some comments made — and I read them my last time coming into debate on the supplementary estimates — that the shelter, I don’t see it as a problem. I see it as an opportunity, an opportunity to provide services for= our most vulnerable community members.
We als= o see that the businesses that have come forward within that general vicinity have indicated that they wanted to look at a partnership initiative. They came up with some recommendations, which we are exploring right now with our partne= rs — answering the call for a community plan with our partners through t= he community in Justice, the City of Whitehorse, and our First Nation communit= ies.
I also= wanted to just stop and acknowledge that the Whitehorse Emergency Shelter and the sta= ff there — I don’t see it as a debacle, as the member opposite has classified it. I don’t see the management as a problem either, becaus= e I see the management as going above and beyond in providing essential service= s, necessary services, to a population base that has historically never been served.
I thin= k, for the record, that we can say that early on, in the point-in-time count which I participated in — so I walked the downtown core, sat on the river, sa= t in the parks, met with the folks, participated in doing the interviews — which I was honoured to do because a lot of the community members on the streets in Whitehorse come from rural Yukon communities. A lot of them are members whom I know — citizens who come from each one of our communit= ies. They’re people — they’re people who are fathers, grandfathers, aunties, uncles, and children. These are people who have fall= en into unfortunate circumstances and they need a little hand up. The little h= and up is to help them to get access to the services.
I̵= 7;ve happily purchased many tickets for residents to go home. Why? Because the system doesn’t support individuals once they come into the city. If t= hey miss an airplane, well, there is no other way to get home. They are essenti= ally forgotten about. We see this throughout our system.
I have= an elder who came to Whitehorse for cancer treatment. He got let go. It was Friday afternoon. Everything was shut down. He called me and he says, “What = am I going to do? I don’t understand the system. I don’t know where = to go. How is this going to work? I need to go home. I have no money.” S= o, you have to think outside the box and try to build a system that meets the need= s of everyone and clearly addresses the needs of individuals, especially during = such trying times. Right now, through COVID, we’re seeing perhaps a society that we’ve never seen before. We’ve seen every day the resident= s of our community accessing the shelter.
Sugges= ting that it’s in shambles, Mr. Chair — we’ve had one full yea= r to manage that facility. The one full year we’ve had allowed us an opportunity to do comprehensive assessments and review around what’s required. Why is that? The 2018 numbers came in showing that we’ve se= en a reduction in homelessness in our city — in Whitehorse. We’ve se= en early on — in early years, we’ve seen well over 200. So now we’re seeing some really great programs and initiatives that have been offered. I just want to take note and say how much I appreciate the work of= the department, the work of our NGO partners, and the communities as we look at supporting the clients.
The fa= ct that we have learned some things about our external services and supports and with = our care centres outside the Yukon — how important it is to look at alternative options, which we are currently doing — $2.2 million= in 2016 — that is down to $1.4 million. Do we bring that down even further by bringing more surgeons and more specialist supports to Yukon? We certainly recognize that it is not something that you want to do on a yearly basis, but you do want to look for options going forward to better align services with the cost factors and then, of course, deliver out to rural Yu= kon communities essential services and supports in a collaborative fashion.
Ms. McLeod: I have some questions for the minister around the $100,000 that was budgeted = in the 2019‑20 budget for the Watson Lake men’s shelter. In Novemb= er of last year, the minister confirmed in a letter that Health and Social Services had entered into a transfer payment agreement with Help and Hope f= or Families in Watson Lake to lead the work on a housing needs assessment and a men’s shelter feasibility study, with a full report expected at the e= nd of 2019.
Can th= e minister confirm that the $100,000 was spent in full?
Hon. Ms. Frost: I want to just paint a bit of a picture around what is happening in the commu= nity of Watson Lake — long historical trauma in that community associated = with the residential school. We know that. I have relatives in Watson Lake, so I know the impact. I know that the indigenous community has had some challeng= es. What we have seen most recently is that we have seen a shortage in housing.= We have seen some programs and services not being addressed. I have gone there quite a few times. I have met with the seniors and I have met with the elde= rs in that community — holding community engagement sessions — rea= lly to look at where we are seeing shortfalls and where we are seeing some flaw= s.
A year= ago, Lakeview Manor — which was owned by the development corporation of the First Nations — was shut down. First it was around the land leases, a= nd then it turned into more about — oh, now there are some discrepancies= in the safety of the building. So, the department brought in security guards. = We brought in fire watch. We brought in supports to keep the facility running.= At the same time, we couldn’t keep that on and the fire marshal came in = and we must shut it down.
We sen= t down a critical incident team from Health and Social Services and Yukon Housing Corporation to work with Liard First Nation, to work with the municipality,= and to work with our partners down there to look at ensuring that every person = who walked out of that building and defined themselves as now being displaced h= ad a place to go. Now, realizing that there is no men’s shelter in Watson Lake, we only had the Help and Hope for Families Society, which we have wor= ked with, and they have an aspiration to look at meeting the broader needs of t= he community. The executive director there is a very exceptional community mem= ber — a long-time resident of the community who has had a passion for a w= hile — a passion for ensuring that residents’ needs are being met.= span>
We hav= e worked through the Department of Health and Social Services to put resources aside= to essentially look at trying to address a positive outcome, a positive outcome for the community with respect to a shelter facility or some form of transitional housing in the community. We currently have the Help and Hope = for Families Society, which addresses some shelter, and then, of course, some transitional housing. In conjunction with that, we have lined them up with = the Yukon Housing Corporation and Health and Social Services.
Having= done that, we also saw a great need to work with the Liard First Nation. In work= ing with the Liard First Nation, we have also realized that — we often ta= lk about reconciliation and about supports for all sectors of our society with= out distinguishing one individual from another. We have a community obligation.= We have a societal obligation.
So we = went ahead and did two things — one is that the Social Supports branch contacted= the NGO, the Help and Hope for Families Society, to look at the community housi= ng needs assessment — and that was right on the heels of the closure of Lakeview Manor — and to also look at giving them a hand to address ad= ditional capacity and supports so that the Homelessness Association of British Colum= bia could start working on a point-in-time count for our men’s shelter. G= iven that COVID, of course, happened, they haven’t had the opportunity = 212; that posed some significant restrictions on the engagement and the focus groups, which resulted, of course, in the delay of that specific project.= span>
What I= ’m happy to say is that the Yukon Housing Corporation started work on the supportive housing needs assessment early on to identify the size and scale= of new supportive housing projects in the community — the possibility of what we might want to look at for 2021 — and then start looking at so= me engagement in the community.
I̵= 7;m happy to note that this is completed, so we do have some early indication from the Yukon Housing Corporation of the recommendations on some options. Right now= , we are working with the community; we are working with the Liard First Nation = very closely. We are also working with the municipality and, of course, Community Services around the continuation of initiatives in that community. I can sp= eak more about that should the member opposite desire more information with res= pect to some of the initiatives being suggested for the community.
Ms. McLeod: The transfer agreement of $100,000 to the Help and Hope for Families — was that money expended, or has any of that been revoted?
Hon. Ms. Frost: I’m just seeking a little clarification around the trans= ition and how the transition happened — appreciating that we have two jurisdictions that we’re working with in the community of Watson Lake= . We clearly have to work with British Columbia as we look at the core base of t= he community, Lower Post, Liard, and the community proper.
Early = on, as I indicated, the department contacted the Help and Hope for Families Society = to look at a housing needs assessment. That work started, and then COVID‑= ;19 hit, so we had to take a bit of a step back. At the same time, we were movi= ng with the Housing Corporation, given that they have an obligation in the com= munity to provide some housing.
Point-= in-time counts are really about meeting the core needs of the individuals, so we ha= ve to try to lay one over top of the other to ensure that we meet all the holi= stic and care needs of the individuals as they present.
The fu= nding that was set aside — the $85,000. All the work that was intended to be completed didn’t happen. The work is now continuing with the Yukon Housing Corporation and working in collaboration, as I indicated earlier — and I will pull it back up — with the housing association of British Columbia and really trying to pull it all together. Right now, we h= ave the assessment from the Yukon Housing Corporation, but we have to look at t= he other piece of that. Once we conclude that, we will put the package together and then start putting some effort into building a men’s shelter. Tha= t is what we are hearing from our partners in Watson Lake.
Constr= ucting in 2021 is a real possibility. We certainly want to do that in collaboration w= ith our partners in the community, keeping in mind that we have a new mayor now= in Watson Lake. We want to keep that connection there through our Community Services partners as well and, of course, through the Yukon Housing Corpora= tion and through British Columbia to try to look at a very cohesive, collaborati= ve approach to addressing some of the core housing needs in the community of Watson Lake.
Ms. McLeod: The minister has adjusted that figure from $100,000 to $85,000. I still donR= 17;t have an answer as to whether or not someone wrote a cheque for that amount = of money, or is it still in the budget? Has it been revoted and held over to t= his fiscal year?
The mi= nister referenced delays due to COVID‑19. The census report was expected at = the end of 2019, which was somewhat in advance of COVID‑19. Perhaps we are looking at a bit of a delay. Since COVID‑19 is expected to be with us= for some time, when is that report going to be completed and made available to = the public?
Hon. Ms. Frost: I apologize if I wasn’t clear. The $85,000 was spent; al= located in the budget was $100,000. There is $15,000 remaining. We’re still in this year. We’re looking at compiling the report.
With r= espect to the action plan for the community, I’m really extremely pleased and excited to say that the community of Watson Lake is finally getting recogni= zed in terms of addressing their core housing needs. We will no longer have peo= ple displaced by shutting down facilities. We want to be able to look at openin= g up facilities. That means we have to move quickly, and we have to address what= the core needs are in the community — which is exactly what we’re d= oing right now — and addressing some historical wrongs in that community. We’re doing that in collaboration with our partners. The fact that we’re looking at a Housing First initiative in the community, with di= rect access to some resources that are readily available to us — but that = has to be done in partnership with the Liard First Nation and, of course, the municipality.
We wil= l continue to do that good work to ensure that we address some of the challenges, the housing shortages that we’ve seen, and the lack of shelter for men. As the member opposite may know, being in government for quite some time, oftentimes you get draft reports in advance that give you a bit of an indic= ation of what’s happening and what you’re seeing in terms of a schema= tic or an assessment. This information is to be used by the parties. It’s= not going to be made a public document, I don’t believe, unless the parti= es desire that to be the case. We will certainly consult with the Liard First Nation and maybe ask if they want to share detailed information about their citizens. That might not be possible. The Help and Hope for Families Society may not want to share that information because of being a small community. = We certainly want to protect the rights and identification of individuals, so = we will proceed cautiously in terms of how we report on specific data from communities that are smaller in nature, but we certainly want to build on w= hat we’ve heard and build on the feedback that we’ve received from = the community.
I want= to just say that the objective really is to work with the community, engage with the community, and continue to engage on some options going forward. We have so= me positive initiatives, some positive feedback, and, of course, some positive results that we are currently quite excited about moving forward on. Perhap= s in the next year we will see a huge housing initiative in that community. It m= ay happen sooner.
I just= want to stop there and thank the community for their engagement and for participati= ng in honest feedback and helping us to acquire the data and the supports need= ed there.
Ms. McLeod: So with the minister’s partners being Yukon Housing and the Homelessness Services Association of BC, it sounds very much like they have already reac= hed a conclusion — you know, if we look at this year’s budget. Secondly, I don’t think that the community is aware that they have be= en consulted.
Obviou= sly, I can’t think of anybody who wants to know any personal information abo= ut any citizen. However, the results — the conclusions reached by a repo= rt paid for with $85,000 taxpayer dollars — would certainly be of intere= st to the citizens.
For th= e minister to say that it is none of their business is a little bit surprising. I would like to hear from the minister today — how do you go about consulting with a population when you won’t release the data? Maybe the minister= can tell us a little bit about how she sees that unfolding, because clearly the minister seems to already have this figured out without consultation with t= he community. I will just leave it there, and maybe the minister can inform us= .
Hon. Ms. Frost: I chuckled, not because of the subject matter. I chuckled beca= use I did not say such a thing. I said that sometimes, in smaller communities, it= is imperative on us, as professionals, to be mindful of the fact that small communities — when we do a point-in-time count or when we do assessme= nts, we need to be mindful and respectful of the individuals. That was my object= ive.
I do w= ant to say that the purpose of the debate today is with the intention of responding to= the supplementary overage of $5.246 million. The $100,000 that’s bei= ng highlighted right now is for a project in the community that has gone throu= gh extensive consultation already. Suggesting that this hasn’t happened = is absolutely not true. Consultation happened; that’s why we have the results, and we can now say that there is a need.
The He= lp and Hope for Families Society has done a really great job. They have had the pu= lse of the community for quite a long time. The Yukon Housing Corporation, the = BC Housing authority — we have had lots of input, and we will continue t= o do that.
I woul= d like to suggest that, if there are any specific questions with respect to the budget before us today, I would like to respond to those. I’m sure I can res= pond to any other questions that the member might have, at the opportune time. T= he $100,000 is not captured in this particular budget item up for debate.
Ms. McLeod: I’m sorry — that statement was just hilarious. We have been after this minister to provide us with the details of the $5.2 million, which we = have yet to get. I don’t know if this $100,000 factors into that, and the truth of the matter is that this is a debate on the financial obligations a= nd implications of public funding for the year 2019‑20. I don’t th= ink that can be any clearer.
Becaus= e the minister has stated that she has consulted with the Town of Watson Lake, my question is: Whom did the minister consult and when?
Hon. Ms. Frost: I can say that I didn’t do the consultation myself, as t= he minister. The staff of the Yukon Housing Corporation and the staff of Health and Social Services worked in collaboration with the community members. Per= haps the member opposite asking the question may be aware, given that she repres= ents the community, that there was consultation happening — currently R= 12; in the community to gather this data.
I do w= ant to also just respond by saying that the Member for Takhini-Kopper King asked a specific detail question with respect to the breakdown, so I provided that.= I said that I would table the results, and I will do that.
I will= break it down. If the member opposite requires it, I can read that again into the record. I would have great pleasure in doing that and breaking it down. The= re is no hiding of anything. Everything is on the books and identified, as I indicated the last time that I stood here on this budget item. Let me just = get the numbers — but the total was broken down into three specific categories: insured health services; COVID; and then we had another amount, which was $1.4 million. So $1.3 million was allocated for insured health services, and then we had $2.6 million for Social Supports, and then, of course, we had the COVID expenditures as well. I can certainly tak= e the time to go through that breakdown, if that’s appropriate. I just need= to know how much time I have, because it might take some time for me to get th= at down on record.
With r= espect to the budget area and the expenditures, the member opposite made some suggest= ions — that I’m not sharing the information. I would be happy to do = that now.
The ch= ief medical officer’s expenditures there are associated with the increased staffing and program expenditures in response to the initial emergency situation. The allocated amount there was $40,000.
The He= alth Emergency Operations Centre — for staffing and operations of the cent= re staff, the Respiratory Assessment Centre, and the self-isolation facility — that was allocated at $265,000 for that facility. Just keep in mind that, of the overall budget, 25 percent was spent on COVID — and that’s what I’m going through right now. Yukon Communicable Dis= ease Control — a centre for staff and overtime — this allowed for additional support to address the public needs related to COVID — so = we had to staff up and we had to bring in staff to the assessment centre and, = of course, the wraparound supports for our chief medical officer of health. = span>
The environmental health services — there was significant overtime associ= ated with COVID as well related to inspections and concerns across the territory= . As we know, we had to put in rules very quickly to address restaurants and to address our service industry, and we had to work with the sector. The alloc= ated amount there was $10,000.
We had= the Emergency Coordination Centre. Social services deployed staff to the Emerge= ncy Coordination Centre to support the response to COVID‑19. There’s $25,000 allocated there. The Yukon Hospital Corporation also required additional resources to support its initial response to the operational cha= nges and enhancements to prepare for the pandemic and ensure the health and safe= ty of patients, staff, and the general public.
We all= ocated at that time $170,000 to the continuing care facility to support the staff the= re to ensure that residents of our long-term care homes had the appropriate supports and were safe, meaning that we had to put the necessary measures in place — as the member opposite knows, this seems to be the vulnerable population with respect to COVID‑19. This was demonstrated across the country, so we had to quickly put in place measures to protect our seniors.=
Licens= ed childcare — support to keep our centres available for essential worke= rs and to ensure that licensed childcare centres would remain viable and open — there was $600,000 allocated to that. So the total COVID‑19 expense was $1.42 million.
For so= cial services — approximately 50 percent was spent on social services, extended family care agreements — supports for children and families through the extended family care agreements — so that was $900,000. We went on ad nauseum around that — about why it’s important to support the children rather than apprehending them, bringing them back to t= he community, and supporting the children and families in our communities R= 12; which we have not done historically. It’s really about reconciliation= and about repatriation. It’s about the Truth and Reconciliation Commissio= n of Canada’s recommendations. It’s about ensuring that we provide transparency and support to all of our communities.
The ma= jority of the children in care are indigenous. Of course, the population of our indigenous community is about one-third of the Yukon, yet we see 80 pe= rcent of our children in care. I say “our” because I am indigenous. As you can see, I am an indigenous mother. I am Vuntut Gwitchin and our children are in care. We have been advised that we must repatriate and bring them home.
Family= and Children’s Services and other expenses — we have seen through t= hat allocation of $500,000 — for mental wellness and substance use — unexpected increases and supports for mental health. Of course, we needed to put the resources in place for mental wellness supports in all of our rural Yukon communities where we have seen an uptake. We needed to accommodate th= at and respond appropriately.
There = is a lot of debate around the Whitehorse Emergency Shelter providing services for significantly more individuals that we hadn’t seen historically. As I noted in the record, we’ve seen, through Salvation Army’s management, 13 people a night — 13 to 15 — and now we see in ex= cess of 80 people a night. We were serving 350 meals a day — we were servi= ng those pre-COVID — which is an indication that our citizens are coming= to this facility now to use the services that they weren’t allowed to ac= cess previously. Of course, we had to ensure that we provided additional supports like the emergency measures services, addictions services, social services = — we have social workers there now who weren’t there before — men= tal wellness supports, mental wellness counsellors, and emergency measures services.
Early = on, we quickly moved to provide supports to our youth. We’ve seen an uptick = in women there as well and so we had to start working on ensuring that we prov= ided the services that they need — the specific and unique services.
With r= espect to health services — we’ve allocated, of this total amount, 25&nbs= p;percent that went to unexpected expenditures and insured health services, including= a substantial growth in numbers of inpatient days billed for Yukoners being treated in the BC hospitals. I read that into the record, and I don’t believe I should do that again given that we know the numbers are in excess= of 20,000 bed days.
WeR= 17;ve provided services to a number of Yukoners — a lot of Yukoners. We’ve also seen longer duration of stays and we see that neonatal car= e is essential. These are things we can’t control, but we are obligated to legally provide those supports. That made up the $1.3 million of the budget.
Ms. McLeod: So, I’m adding up the figures. I have my calculator here. I’m addin= g up the numbers the minister is giving us and she’s going to give us a breakdown of the $5.2 million, she said. So, I come up with $2,510,000. Throw in figures like: 25 percent is for health services and 25 p= ercent is COVID. That kind of leaves us with, “Where the heck are we?”=
The mi= nister said she would table the breakdown of the $5.2 million.
I wasn= ’t sure if she has already provided that to the Third Party — no? I thou= ght that’s what the minister had indicated, but apparently not. So, you k= now, it’s difficult to have a fulsome discussion when we can’t get a breakdown of $5.2 million.
I don&= #8217;t believe that there’s any point in the minister spending additional ti= me trying to detail these dollars on the floor of the Legislature, because that has proved pretty unsuccessful for all of us in the last couple of days.
I woul= d like to go back to my original question, which was: Who has the minister consulted = on the housing study in Watson Lake, and when was that?
Hon. Ms. Frost: With respect to the tabling of the detailed breakdown of the $5.246 million= , I indicated that I would table that to the Third Party. If the member opposit= e would like, I will be sure to provide that to the member opposite as well so she = can do the calculations: $1.4 million, $2.6 million, $1.3 million — and with respect to the detailed breakdown, I will be happy to prov= ide that.
With r= espect to consultation and engagement on housing and housing initiatives, I don’= ;t believe that’s in this appropriation, but I would be happy to provide that information to the member opposite, if the member opposite would like,= but right now, I wanted to say that we are prepared to support the community, a= nd we will continue to engage and consult with the community.
Ms. McLeod: I don’t know. Colour me silly — when the minister said that she w= ould table those results, I thought it meant for everybody here. I didn’t = know that it was just for the Third Party.
Some Hon. Member: (Inaudible)
Ms. McLeod: I know, yeah.
So, I&= #8217;m a little surprised that it has taken today to get a commitment from the minis= ter to provide it to the Member for Watson Lake.
Howeve= r, I’m going to leave that, and I look forward to getting those figures because we are not on the same page in this matter.
As I s= aid, the minister is refusing to discuss anything except $5.2 million, which we can’t get any details on. It makes this discussion — this whole= use of the House’s time — to be a little bit like — what the heck, Mr. Chair.
Part o= f what is concerning me about this study on the Watson Lake men’s shelter that = the minister won’t talk about is her identification of the two bodies that she is working with — Yukon Housing Corporation and the Homelessness Services Association of BC — to come up with a plan, which appears to= be done, without even mentioning the four other local groups that I know are working on this matter. I’m a little confused about who has been cons= ulted and when they were consulted. If I can get an answer to that, I will stand = down from this line.
Hon. Ms. Frost: I would respectfully say that the Help and Hope for Families S= ociety is a community organization. The Liard First Nation is a community organiza= tion that represents a significant part of the community. If there are challenges with respect to who has been engaged and who has not been engaged, I would happily respond to that and ensure that they have had ample opportunity. The objective of the assessment was really just to find out what the core needs= in the community are and where we need to put our efforts — indicating t= hat there is a desire and a need for a shelter for men in the community and the fact that we wanted to look at housing as a key priority. Not doing any of those assessments, the fact that Lakeview Manor was shut down meant that th= ere were a number of individuals in that facility — perhaps in excess of = 20 — who have been displaced, which is an indication that there is a nee= d in the community and which meant that you needed to have some rapid response. = That is why the Housing Corporation and Health and Social Services mobilized very quickly to get to Watson Lake.
As I s= aid to the Member for Takhini-Kopper King, I will get her the details. I intend to do that. It is not in any way suggesting that I am going to exclude the Member= for Watson Lake. Should she desire the information, I would be happy to do that= . I can table it in the Legislature as well. There is nothing that prevents us = from doing that, so I would be happy to do that.
We are= working on getting that right now and just prepping up. It’s not in any way about, as the Member for Lake Laberge suggests, being out of touch with reality. Well, the fact is, Mr. Chair, that we have to look at collaborative care, we have to look at facilities, and we have to look at housing as a human right. That means that we need to look at the community = of Watson Lake. We need to look at shelters, and we need to look at ensuring t= hat we provide necessary care. That is part of how we look at these overages and expenditures that we are discussing today.
Unfore= seen circumstances required that we respond with services for our clients — had to be flown to Vancouver, British Columbia or to Alberta. We have child= ren who require supports. We receive invoices after the fiscal year. The members opposite are well aware that this happened on their watch; it has happened = for many years. We are working hard to address that by bringing specialist serv= ices to the Yukon — pediatricians and orthopaedic surgeons — and we = are continuing to work with our colleagues to address the overages that we have seen historically, bringing those services here. I can bring some of that historical data as well, which really just justifies what happened prior to 2016 — and it was in excess of $2 million — and bringing t= hat down significantly. It really just had to do with bringing the supports to = the Yukon.
I want= to just acknowledge that there are other community organizations in Watson Lake, as there are in every community. As we proceeded with our seniors action engagement through our aging in place, we consulted with the elders societi= es in the communities. We will continue to coordinate with most of our communi= ty partners. I would be happy if the member opposite would share the informati= on with us for those organizations that perhaps she thought were not consulted= . We would be happy to bring that back, of course, to the Help and Hope for Fami= lies Society and the housing authority that is working on the current assessments — and the summary of that.
Mr. Hassard: I would like to thank the officials for being here today. I have a few questi= ons regarding the numbers as well, and it has been interesting listening to the minister this afternoon. We are talking about $5.2 million. The minist= er talked about $1.4 million for COVID‑19, $1.3 million for insured health services, $900,000 for extended family care, and $500,000 for mental wellness support. According to my math, that actually adds up to $4.= 1 million.
When s= he spoke here just a few minutes ago, she talked about $1.4 million, $1.3 = million, and $2.6 million, and that is actually more than $5.3 million = 212; so maybe if the minister could just give a little bit of clarification ther= e to see if I have missed something or if, in fact, she has — if that woul= d be okay, Mr. Chair?
Hon. Ms. Frost: With respect to the overall expenditures, as it’s broken down, I had read = into the record — so did the Premier — that the Whitehorse Emergency= Shelter — the question from the Member for Lake Laberge spoke about the Whitehorse Emergency Shelter — we indicated there was $800,000 alloca= ted to the emergency shelter.
We als= o talked a lot about mental wellness and substance use during that time. I also spoke about it. There’s an additional $400,000 allocated to that. If the me= mber opposite would like me to read that all over again, I can do that — including those two numbers — but it has been read into the record. If they were tracking it all, they would find that all of it is covered in the record, but I would be happy to do that again and slow it down a bit — because I know, when I spoke and broke it down for the Member for Takhini-Kopper King, I was going a little fast, and she asked me to bring i= t down a notch. So I would be happy to do that for the Member for Pelly-Nisutlin so that we can, in effect, get it on the record — but I have indicated t= hat I would bring it back in writing, so I would be pleased to do that as well.=
Mr. Hassard: It would actually be nice if the minister could do that, because, even with ju= st what she said now — with $800,000 for the emergency shelter and then = the additional $400,000, that brings us to $5.3 million. Obviously, there’s something that’s not quite lining up there, so if she c= ould clarify if that’s all that’s wrong, or if we could get that read into the record, please, Mr. Chair.
Hon. Ms. Frost: So, the member — as calculated, the numbers that were gi= ven were not precisely exactly down to the numbers. As we were calculating and getting ready for this supplementary request, we broke it down to the speci= fic areas of where we spent the funding and broke it down into percentages= and then went down into specific categories. Overall, we indicated approximately $2,246,000. If you round the numbers, it would come in at about $5.3 m= illion. I said I would detail the numbers and bring it back, but in an effort to ge= t it here and in an effort to provide clarity, that’s what we have right n= ow.
I woul= d be happy to bring that back to the Legislative Assembly with the exact cents that we spent and the exact dollars on every one of these areas. Right now, we have rounded it up to get us to a number so that we can get it into the supplementary request and get that through Cabinet and get that to the table today. We’re working on getting the exact numbers, but the numbers ha= ve been rounded and approximately totalled — as I said, $5.246 mill= ion. The calculation is $5.3 million and the adjustment that will be made on the actuals will come to the floor of the Legislature.
Mr. Hassard: I appreciate that, but I guess my concern still is the fact that, when we ask these questions of the Premier in general debate, he says, “You need = to wait until the department gets here and then you can get all of the information. You can get the exact information.” So, now we wait for = the department to get here and then we’re told, “Well, we don’= ;t have all of that exact information for you. We have to get it for you.̶= 1;
So, I = guess, Mr. Chair, my question is: How long do we have to wait for this information? Also, why, when the Premier told us that this is where we get the information, are we = in fact again told that we have to go somewhere else for that information?
Hon. Ms. Frost: I would like to speak about the objective. What we said is we would bring the information — I’m here to speak about the budget and I’m happy to do that.
I have= spoken now to the breakdown of what we spent the money on. With respect to the exa= ct numbers, I said we would bring that. We have rounded it up to get us to this place right now. I am not in any way — I want Yukoners to know that t= here is no — we are not in any way hiding anything. We said we would bring= the numbers, and that is exactly what we’re doing. We provided resources = to the chief medical officer of health during COVID — 25 percent of= the budget was spent on COVID‑related expenditures, and that was $1.4&nbs= p;million — approximately $1.4 million. We will get the exact number and t= he exact breakdown of that. We know that we have spent $2.4 million on so= cial services and that equates to 50 percent of $2.6 million and I bro= ke that down — then, of course, health services.
I woul= d be happy to support the evidence and argue the point that we have provided the servi= ces to Yukoners. These funds that were spent were spent on the well-being of Yukoners. They were spent on ensuring that Yukoners’ health was the utmost priority and we met them as required under the COVID‑related pressures, but we also met the requirements for ensuring that families and children were safe and that they had the supports that they needed. With respect to mental wellness supports and services — we have to support that as well, and of course, I will say again that we do have a legal obligation to ensure that we provide insured health services to clients who= are given services outside the Yukon, and that is what we have before us. The Premier was right in suggesting that I would respond to the questions. I wo= uld be happy to respond to the specifics of each one of these categories that I have mentioned today, but if the member opposite wants to quibble over the specific details of the difference in the numbers — as I indicated, I= do commit to bringing that back to the Legislative Assembly.
The de= partment has done a really great job amidst the fact that they were in the middle of= a COVID crisis. We currently are still in a crisis. Of course, in the middle = of a crisis, you are managing — you are managing health services, you are managing community services — we are managing all of the services required that are essential for Yukoners.
At the= same time, we’re prepping up the detailed documents to get us ready for the Legislative Assembly, so I want to just take a moment to acknowledgement the staff of Health and Social Services and the staff at Dr. Hanley’s office, and our front-line staff are doing such a great job — to let = them know that, during this unprecedented time, sometimes there are delays. I’m not in any way condoning the fact that this difference in the num= bers is acceptable. There’s no doubt about the fact that we went over our mains, and we’re here to say that these are the reasons why. That specifically explains to Yukoners that their health and their well-being is= of the utmost priority to this government.
Mr. Hassard: The minister said a couple of very interesting things there: First off, there is the fact that she wants people to know that she isn’t hiding anything; and, secondly, she thinks that I’m here to quibble over specific deta= ils. Now, my question, Mr. Chair, was — when the Premier was asked th= ese questions in general debate, the Premier told us, as opposition members, th= at we would get this information when the department came forward. Now the department is here, and the minister says that she will provide that information at a later date.
My que= stion was quite simple. I said: When will we receive that information?
Hon. Ms. Frost: With respect to the general debate, there were a number of thi= ngs said in the general debate. The Member for Lake Laberge would be aware, as = he spent most of the time speaking, suggesting that the Premier is out of touch with reality and that things are quite a mess — the operation and maintenance clientele whom we are serving — and going on to suggest t= hat we have not provided the supports to Yukoners.
I want= to assure Yukoners that we are fully prepared to address any debate with respect to t= he well-being of Yukoners. We changed our health care model.
The me= mber very interestingly suggested that we were perhaps not clear on the difference between collaborative care — what does that mean and what does collaborative care look like? Well, collaborative care means that we take c= are of Yukoners no matter where they are, no matter where they reside, and no matter the circumstances.
When I= indicate that we are going to provide services to Yukoners, we will do that, Mr.&nbs= p;Chair. To say that we are proceeding along lines where we don’t have the information — exactly as I presented it today. The breakdown of the categories is exactly what the money was spent on. If the member opposite is not pleased with that, I don’t know what else to suggest, other than = to say that we spent the funds as indicated on the specific areas to meet the needs of Yukoners. I personally would be happy to table the exact details of the budget as it is broken down.
What I= presented are the rounded-up numbers. Perhaps the member opposite is not pleased with that, but that is what I am presenting today. I said that I would bring the numbers in, and I did. These are what we have. I indicated to the member ac= ross the way for Takhini-Kopper King that we would bring exact numbers. Those are still pending. I mean, we are in the middle of the COVID‑19 pandemic = and the department is working really hard on getting those exact figures to us. That is what I have for today, Mr. Chair.
The he= alth care model — as we move from an acute care model, we looked at a collabora= tive model. That means, of course, that we had to look at expanded practices her= e in Yukon, meaning that we had to look at the supports for mental wellness, we = had to look at the supports for our vulnerable populations, plus we had to look= at ensuring that we look at the detailed analysis around the overages and the expenditures specific to our external medical travel, hospital stays, and looking at the fact that historically our children were apprehended from th= eir families. We have now repatriated and brought them back home. We will conti= nue to do that good work. That is what this budget was spent on. I can certainly provide specific details around each of those program areas and the unexpec= ted increases that resulted from them.
Mr. Hassard: It’s interesting — the minister spoke about the Premier being out of touch= . I guess I would have to agree, because he led us to believe that, when the department got here, we would get these answers. Apparently, he is out of t= ouch because we aren’t getting the answers.
Again,= the question was very simple. It had nothing to do with the Member for Lake Lab= erge or the Premier. I asked when we would get that information that she says is going to be tabled.
Is it = possible to get an actual answer to that question?
Hon. Ms. Frost: I would like to just say again, for the record, that we broke down the budget into the categories and into the line items that we went over. We rounded t= hose up because, obviously, as I indicated, we are in the middle of a pandemic. = We did break it down. We said we would do that, and that’s exactly what = we did to give an indication to the member opposite and to Yukoners what the m= oney was spent on. I said that I would table the exact figures.
With r= espect to the comments — inappropriate comments, by the way — made previo= usly and made again today, that’s absolutely not the truth. What that was related to was the fact that the member suggested that we, as a government, were out of touch with reality — suggesting that the Whitehorse Emerg= ency Shelter was a collaborative care centre. Part of the money in this budget w= as spent on the Whitehorse Emergency Shelter. The essential care and core need= s of the vulnerable population that had not been supported historically is funded under this budget. The member opposite suggesting that we didn’t know — that we have no idea what collaborative care is — well, of co= urse we do.
Collab= orative care is not acute care. It’s about whole care of individuals and ensu= ring that we meet them where they are in our society, where they reside in our society, and where they choose to come to us from our society. The shelter provides those collaborative wraparound services — social workers, me= ntal wellness supports, working with the Referred Care Clinic, addictions servic= es, housing, and Housing First — all of these initiatives. We’ve ar= gued this point in this Legislative Assembly around philosophies of core needs of individuals, moving from acute care to collaborative care.
As I u= nderstand it, the engagement was really around the health care model for Yukoners, an= d Putting People First was really an effort for us to get to that place to look at engagement of Yukoners. We’ve done many point-in-time counts in the city; we spent a lot of t= ime at the shelter — I have, personally — to meet and sit with the individuals who work at this facility and the individuals who live there.= span>
This i= nitiative, I guess, is defined by way of engagement from our communities through our S= afe at Home initiatives, elaboration on our by-name list, the fact that we̵= 7;re moving from social services to housing with social supports, the efforts ar= ound the philosophy of Housing First — those are things we want to talk ab= out in the Legislative Assembly. We want to talk about what this $2.546 mi= llion was spent on. It was spent on core needs of Yukoners.
I know= that it’s not something that we want to do again or make a practice of. It’s certainly not. We recognize that we have gone overbudget, and the objective is to come back to Yukoners and explain to Yukoners why we went overbudget, in what specific areas we went over in, and then quantify for t= hem why that was — and to look at continuing care, licensed child care, Y= ukon Hospital Corporation, environmental health services, Yukon communicable diseases, our emergency operations centre, the office of the chief medical officer of health — speaking to each one of our Yukon families, with = the children whom we have repatriated back to them through our extended family = care agreements — they want to know that we have the resources in the budg= et to support them rather than apprehending the children and locking them up a= nd taking them away. We don’t want to be in the situation where our First Nation community, like Kwanlin Dün, early on — a few years ago — when they essentially locked out social workers.
That i= s no longer happening. Through our extended family care agreements, the funding = was not available to support the communities, to bring the children back. We we= re taking the children away. Our group homes were maxed out. We were building = more group homes. In fact, we have torn down group homes, and we have moved the children back to their communities. That’s what this is about.=
If you= want to talk about mental wellness and substance use — we oftentimes in the Legislative Assembly speak about the opioid crisis. We talk about the press= ures in our communities, we talk about addictions counselling services — t= he fact that children didn’t have counsellors, the fact that we only had= two counsellors — well, now we have mental wellness hubs in four communit= ies.
We jus= t went through an inquest. The inquest defined that we bring a collaborative care model to the community of Carmacks. We met with the First Nations, and that= is happening. Mental wellness hubs are happening. Counsellors are happening. We have 22 counsellors now, and we want to make sure that we have child counsellors and nurse psychologists. We are ramping that up. We have looked= at mental wellness and substance use and the unexpected increase was really because we had to meet the needs of Yukoners. Historically, they didn’= ;t have that. They had two positions to go to for all of Yukon. We now have supports, appreciating that this is sometimes a challenge, because we see t= hat Yukoners need support. Rural Yukon communities need support. They have not = seen that support historically. We have had registered nurses in all of our communities — and appreciating that they have a limited scope of practice, we wanted to make sure that we expanded that by bringing in nurse practitioners.
So, wh= en we look at our collaborative care models, we have to look at what is required in the communities. We also look at making sure — as we look at the Whitehor= se Emergency Shelter and look at the clientele at the Whitehorse Emergency She= lter — those are community members who come from rural communities as well= . It means that we need to work with our communities. We need to look at working with our indigenous communities and with our municipalities and bringing ba= ck the community members to their rightful homes and ensuring that we have hou= sing available. Those are some of things that we look at as we provide services = and the analysis.
There = is an exceptional team there. We now have all of the services that I listed previously there that we didn’t have historically. They didn’t = have any services when we took over. There were no services. There was a Christi= an organization running the facility, locking the doors and people were not allowed in. It took great effort to acquire the $13.9-million facility that= had no programming attached to it. All of the funding was in the budget to give= to a company out of Toronto, by the way, that was running the organization. Th= ey had one person on the ground. That is not what Yukoners need.
So, pa= rt of what we want to do is make sure — as we look at the overages and we look at what we have learned from this exercise — is the fact that we have se= en unexpected growth in specific areas and defining what we have learned from = that exercise. How are we going to essentially look at the next fiscal year in addressing some of the overages and try to align that with the core needs so that we don’t have to go into this situation? Given that, as my teach= ers would say: Nakwhee K’= ;agwaadhat nakwhah vili’= — wherever you go, you’re going to be watched, but the thing is, COVID&= #8209;19 is here. It’s going to affect all of us; we have no control over that. The 25 percent might have increased — we don’t know — but we have to be adaptive and responsible to whatever comes at us. That’s exactly what is happening in the specific submission today. It’s really about making sure that we address the needs of Yukoners.<= /span>
The nu= mber of inpatient days billed for Yukoners being treated in BC hospitals — we have no control over that. $1.3 million — it might be a bit more= ; it might be a bit less. What I said I would do is — we broke it down into the categories of the areas we know where the money went, and we justified = why the expenditures happened. Why were the funds spent on the chief medical officer of health? Why were they spent on family services? Why were they sp= ent on the Hospital Corporation? Because they demonstrated that they needed the resources.
Of cou= rse, we know that it’s not something where we’re going to say, “Sorry, you can’t have the money; you can’t have the resources to deliver the essential services” or “Sorry, family member, we can’t fund you, because we’re going to go over.̶= 1; That’s absolutely not the objective. The objective is to ensure that = we have the resources to fund the core essential needs of Yukoners and that, as they come in the door and they ask for the support, that we provide that to them.
Now, s= uggesting that we’re not providing the information and details — I can as= sure Yukoners that we are doing that. We’re doing that every day. I’= ve done that; the Premier has done that. Suggesting that we’re not accountable and that the numbers are not there — well, I can tell Yukoners — and I said I would put it on the table, and I will be happ= y to do that as quickly as we can. I have no control over that, but I’ve advised the members from my department to get that turned around as quickly= as possible, so we will work on getting that.
Mr. Hassard:&= #8195;The minister went on quite a lengthy speech about things that she wanted to talk about. It’s kind of interesting, because I thought this was the time = when we came to get answers. That is certainly what the Premier has led us to believe. I am starting to wonder who is out of touch here.
The mi= nister talked about how she has nothing to hide. She isn’t hiding anything f= rom Yukoners. She has mentioned that a few times. I guess Yukoners don’t = know that. We don’t know it here in the Legislature, because the question = was very simple: When can we expect to see those numbers tabled in the Legislat= ure? We know that there is an election coming sometime, so it’s pretty easy for someone to say, “Yes, we will get that to you.” Then the pressure is pretty much off once we walk out the doors here because we don’t know if we will be back in this Legislature again after this Sitting. Maybe the minister knows that and maybe, Mr. Chair, you know = that yourself, but I certainly don’t know that.
It is = important that we get this information for Yukoners. We were told that this is the pl= ace where we would get that information. We have been very patient in asking the minister for that information. She has continued to repeat talking points a= bout everything under the sun. She seems to be quite infatuated with the Member = for Lake Laberge because we hear a lot about what he has to say, but we don’t, in fact, hear when we are going to see the numbers that we are asking to see.
Again,= Mr. Chair, is the minister able to tell us — give us some sort of timeline ̵= 2; when we will see those numbers?
Hon. Ms. Frost: I would like to thank the Member for Pelly-Nisutlin for his comments. I think that what I have indicated was to provide a summary for Yukoners on what the budget was spent on. It’s not an indication that I’m just speaking and wasting time. They asked for a breakdown, and I’ve given the breakdown. I said I would table the documents, and I w= ill do that. The Member for Takhini-Kopper King asked for that, and I said I wo= uld provide it. I will do that.
I̵= 7;m working with the department right now to get the fine details of the exact numbers. What I have, and I have read into the record — perhaps the member opposite would like me to read that again. I would be happy to do th= at. As I understand it, the team indicated that they can pull those together for tabling by next week. Early next week, that will come. They are working on = the documents. Was it ready today? Probably it wasn’t, but I can certainly ensure that we get the numbers.
Some Hon. Member: (Inaudible)
Chair: Ms.&n= bsp;Frost has the floor.
Hon. Ms. Frost: I do want to again acknowledge the department for doing a grea= t job during the pandemic to get us the information as quickly as they can. I wan= t to say to the floor of the Legislative Assembly that I indicated to the Member= for Takhini-Kopper King that I would get her the information. That was last wee= k. We are working on that. We were hoping to have that today; it’s not h= ere. It will get here by Monday of next week.
Now, t= he Member for Watson Lake indicated that she wanted access to all that information. I would be happy to do that. I will table that information. I don’t know what more I can offer to the member. Perhaps he wants me to read into the record again the breakdown of the $1.3 million, $1.4 million, and $2.6 million and the categories it was broken down into in terms of the expenditures, but I do believe that we already have that document so I̵= 7;m not sure what else to offer the member opposite.
Mr. Hassard: I think the thing that the minister doesn’t understand here is that the government dictates the business of the day in this Legislature. The govern= ment has brought forward Health and Social Services for debate. The government w= ants us to pass this supplementary budget. So we’re supposed to pass a supplementary budget without receiving all of the information from the department. If the department was going to have the information ready by ne= xt week, then why did the government not hold off on bringing the department forward with this supplementary budget until the department was in fact rea= dy? That’s not fair to the department officials to have to come here to t= he Legislature to try to help the minister defend the supplementary budget and= the funds, the monies, that they have listed in that budget when they havenR= 17;t been able to get all of the work done that needs to be done.
The mi= nister says that she doesn’t know what else to tell me here in the Legislatu= re. I guess I am not sure what else to ask, Mr. Chair. If the government brings this forward as their business of the day but is unable to provide t= he Legislature with the answers to our questions, then I guess my question to = the minister is: How are we supposed to, in good faith, pass this supplementary budget or allow this budget to carry on without the information that we are asking for?
Hon. Ms. Frost: Again, I want to thank the department because the staff are he= re to provide support to respond to the questions.
With r= espect to the assessment that we have provided, we are, of course, working on getting= the detailed numbers. There are some overages on some specific areas that we are getting back the detailed information on. We do know for a fact that we are currently at $5.246 million. There is a possibility that we will adjust that according to what is here. We will account for that within the existin= g appropriation — with the existing budget.
What w= e have adjusted, according to the breakdown, is what we receive. The department is doing its utmost — and I can assure the member opposite that I can respond to the questions that he has — and with respect to the specif= ic numbers of breaking it down into the exact breakdown. What I understand the department did is that they took the numbers and rounded them up to even th= em out for discussions here today, with the objective that they would bring the exact, specific breakdown on each of these areas, recognizing that the Department of Health and Social Services is under immense pressure right no= w. We are in the middle of a crisis. We are managing the change from the COVID pressures and, at the same time, we have to deal with the pressures that we= are seeing right now.
So, it= ’s not in any way to suggest that the department is not doing a good job. The department is doing an exceptional job, and we are working with the departm= ent to get the numbers to the table. I want to just say that this is where we a= re, Mr. Chair. We have rounded the numbers up for the purpose of today. We have broken it = down into the specific categories and into the sections and given the numbers as they have been presented. I will provide that to the Legislative Assembly on Monday of next week.
Mr. Hassard: It’s certainly frustrating. We all come to the Legislature every day. We have be= en told a couple of times by members opposite that we, as opposition, need to = come to work prepared and we need to be providing accurate information to all of= our constituents in the Yukon. Here’s a perfect example of the government bringing forward a department for debate without having the work done first= .
This i= s year-end of March 31. This isn’t something that happened yesterday. The pandem= ic began in March, so this excuse that the minister says, “We’re dealing with a pandemic.” Yes, we’ve all been dealing with the pandemic. This money was supposedly spent by March 31. So we are asking the questions.
The go= vernment wants us to pass the supplementary budget, but they cannot provide us with = an accurate breakdown of the money spent. My question again to the minister is: How can she expect us, in good faith — in good conscience — to = pass this supplementary budget without the information being provided to us?
Hon. Ms. Frost: What I presented today in the Legislative Assembly was the bre= akdown in the specific areas. The difference of what the member opposite is asking= was just around one percent. I will provide that on Monday, so it is the difference.
The di= fference is categorized. There are no other expenditures outside of this or other categories. It’s all classified as defined in these specific areas. Y= ou will see some minor fluctuation within about 1.0 to 1.4 percent. I can provide that to the member opposite on Monday. The department is currently working on that. That is the difference.
Mr. Hassard: It’s interesting — a few minutes ago when the minister was talking, she sa= id, well, it was this and that, but we might adjust it. Now she’s saying = that it’s between 1.0 and 1.4 percent and that she will provide that information to the House on Monday. I guess my question is: Would the minis= ter like to stand down on Health and Social Services today? We can move on to Highways and Public Works, and when we come back on Monday, we can get the information that the opposition parties are asking for. Once we have that information, we can move forward on passing this supplementary budget.
Hon. Ms. Frost: I will not stand down. The difference between the $5.3 million= and the $1.246 million is about 1.4 percent. I said I would provide the details of that breakdown on Monday. That difference is allocated within the specific categories. The department is working really hard right now to get= the difference in where the expenditures are. Perhaps it is in insured health services or perhaps it is in the COVID‑19 expenditures. They will get that information to us. I would be happy to debate the specific areas about where the funds were spent. I would be happy to have further debate on those specific areas.
Perhap= s the member opposite would like to ask me about environmental health services, the Yukon Hospital Corporation, or the extended family care agreements. Those are the areas in which we have spent the resources. The adjustment of the differenc= e is what will be brought to the floor on Monday.
Mr. Hassard: It is absolutely mind-blowing that the government would want us to pass this supplementary budget and bring a department forward that doesn’t have= the information that is required and is needed.
I cert= ainly appreciate the hard work that the department is doing. I am in no way, shap= e, or form blaming the department for this. I am simply amazed that the govern= ment would bring this forward as the work for the day without having all the information, Mr. Chair. I honestly don’t know what to say.
I̵= 7;m going to move on for a few minutes and let my mind process that a little bit. But= , Mr. Chair, today in Question Period, the Minister of Highways and Public Works said th= at Highways and Public Works had worked with the Department of Health and Soci= al Services on an analysis on Macaulay Lodge that was completed this spring — that’s money from the 2019 budget.
Is it = possible to get an update on that and how much money was spent on that analysis and = if there was any further information other than what was provided by the Minis= ter of Highways and Public Works in Question Period today?
Hon. Ms. Frost: With respect to Macaulay Lodge, as responded to today by the Minister of Highways and Public Works, the analysis for Macaulay Lodge is currently being conducted and also looking at the — Highways and Publ= ic Works will complete a building assessment. That’s ongoing. They were compiling that information. I would be happy to work with the Minister of Highways and Public Works to get that information to the Legislative Assemb= ly; I indicated that. Perhaps he indicated, in responding appropriately, that he would be working on the assessments on that property.
Mr. Hassard: I’m not sure if there’s some confusion there between the ministers or not, but the Minister responsible for Highways and Public Works said in Question Period that he had worked with the Minister responsible for Health and Soci= al Services on an analysis on Macaulay Lodge that was completed in the spring.=
Could = the minister confirm if this analysis was actually completed, or has it yet to = be completed, as she seemed to be leading to in her previous answer?
Hon. Ms. Frost: I was just conferring with the Minister responsible for Highways and Public Works. Noting for the record that Macaulay Lodge was a facility that was ma= naged by Health and Social Services — and the collaboration of the Departme= nt of Health and Social Services with Highways and Public Works was really aro= und whether or not that facility is usable or not. The analysis that Highways a= nd Public Works is completing on the building condition — I will leave t= hat to the minister responsible.
The de= partment has worked with Highways and Public Works to determine whether or not Health and Social Services can still acquire or use that facility. The answer is n= o, given that it’s not in a state of usage.
Mr. Hassard:&= #8195;So, was the statement that the Minister of Highways and Public Works made in Question Period with regard to the fact that Highways and Public Works was working with Health and Social Services to do this analysis — was that statement maybe not entirely correct?
Hon. Ms. Frost: I will say that the Department of Health and Social Services w= orked with Highways and Public Works to determine whether or not Health and Social Services can still use the facility. The determination was no, so now the property reverts to Highways and Public Works. They are responsible for the facility. It was really just some early indication on whether or not the lo= dge could be used now or in the future, and the answer is no.
Mr. Hassard: I’m not very clear on that answer either — but anyway, moving on.<= /p>
With r= egard to the health and wellness centre in Old Crow, it was in the 2019‑20 five-year capital concept. I am wondering if the minister could give us an update on where the government is and how much money has been spent on that project as well.
Hon. Ms. Frost: I can say that we are in the planning process — early indication around wellness centres across the Yukon. Some of the older centres are being replaced, and Old Crow is one of the centres that is required to be replace= d. That is not in this appropriation request; it is in the mains. We would be happy to talk about that if that is where the member wants to go. I can certainly talk about the health centre and the requirement there and give m= ore details, but specifically for the budget today, I would be happy to respond further — but the response around the Old Crow health centre, that is= in the budget for future years.
Chair: Do me= mbers wish to take a brief recess?
All Hon. Members: Agreed.
Chair: Commi= ttee of the Whole will recess for 15 minutes.
Recess
Chair: Commi= ttee of the Whole will now come to order.
The ma= tter before the Committee is continuing general debate on Vote 15, Department of Health and Social Services, in Bill No. 204, entitled Fourth Appropriation Act 2019‑20.
Is the= re any further general debate?
Mr. Hassard: It’s unfortunate that we’ve been put in this situation — all of us h= ere in the Legislature, as well as the department.
As I s= aid before, the government has made the comment many times about coming to work prepared and providing accurate information to Yukoners. I don’t think it’s appropriate at all that the government could possibly expect us = to pass this supplementary budget without all of the information. I know that = the minister thinks that the information we’re asking for isn’t that important. It’s a small amount. According to her, it’s no big d= eal; we’ll get this information on Monday.
Mr.&nb= sp;Chair, I have asked the minister if she would consider standing down so that we co= uld come back to Health and Social Services next week. We could continue on the= debate or possibly not even have to have any debate, once we have the information = that we’re requesting. We can very easily move on to Highways and Public Works. I know the officials are here, ready and willing to debate Highways = and Public Works, so I guess I will make that offer once again to the minister: Would she be amenable to standing down on Health and Social Services — and allowing us to move forward with Highways and Public Works — until next week?
Hon. Ms. Frost: I said before, and I’ll say it again, that I’m not going to stand down. I think the purpose of the debate today is to talk about the budget. = As I understand it from the department — and the member opposite would know — generally, as you do the presentation, you adjust the numbers to ro= und it off. The difference in the budget is $74,000.
Overal= l, the budget for Health and Social Services is the biggest budget in all of government. The member opposite would know — $442 million. Of th= at $442 million, we went over by $5.246 million. We’ve adjusted that, and we presented the details of how that was spent.
There = is a $74,000 difference. I said I would bring that difference back on Monday. I’m still going to do that, with respect to the specific areas, but t= he difference is really — and no disrespect whatsoever — in the gr= and scheme — and if you look at the overall budget and take $74,000 off o= f a $444-million budget — the department rounded it up for presentation purposes — what I understand is common practice. I am not a forensic auditor — I’m sure the member opposite isn’t a forensic auditor, either — but the auditors in the department, the financial accountants who are certified, have indicated that this is general practice= and is what they do.
I woul= d be happy to go back, and they have indicated that they will adjust the $74,000 for t= he record and bring that specific number back to the table on Monday, so I will not stand down.
Mr. Hassard: We certainly look forward to seeing that breakdown of that $74,000. Before the break, we were at somewhere between one percent and 1.4 percent. = Now we actually have a number. Who knows, by the end of the day, we might actua= lly have that breakdown.
Just a= s a courtesy, I would let the officials from Highways and Public Works know tha= t we certainly are not interested in passing this supplementary budget today. Th= ose officials are here waiting to get into Highways and Public Works. We will n= ot be getting into Highways and Public Works; I can assure them of that. We wi= ll continue to debate Health and Social Services for the rest of the day. Maybe next week we will have all of the information and we can carry on with the supplementary budget. As I said, this is just a heads-up to those officials= who are on standby that they need not be.
The go= vernment has indicated that the Meditech system used by health care professionals was going to be upgraded. I am wondering if the minister can give us an update = on this upgrade of the Meditech system.
Hon. Ms. Frost: I will not respond to the question because it is not specific = to the appropriation. If the member opposite wants to speak about the appropriatio= n, I would be happy to speak about the specifics of the program area. If he want= s to talk about Meditech, I don’t see that as part of the submission, so I will not respond.
Mr. Cathers: It has really been quite interesting this Sitting during debate on this supplementary estimate. The Premier has tried to invent new rules of debate restricting the matters that members can ask about on the supplementary estimates. Well, we hear him laughing off-mic. It is small wonder, consider= ing this government waited 201 days before bringing the topic of whether or not= to declare a state of emergency here to the Legislative Assembly after they had implemented and passed dozens of orders — which had a sweeping impact= on people’s lives — without democratic oversight. The Premier considers it a laughing matter. Yukoners don’t, and we don’t. <= /span>
Now, M= r. Chair, as you and members will recall — if the Premier has any interest in t= he facts about the traditions in this Legislative Assembly — the practice has been in debate — and for any of his colleagues who are buying into these new rules restricting debate that the Premier invented — that, during any budget bill, it is typical, common, and perfectly within the procedural rules of this Legislative Assembly to ask general questions about the department and its activity.
It is = not limited, as the Premier and his ministers would have Yukoners believe, to o= nly talk about new appropriations. It is perfectly reasonable — and in the past, ministers would typically answer questions about activities within th= eir departments. Those include statistical questions, program questions, and po= licy questions. That is part of what being a minister entails. You need to be prepared to face the Legislative Assembly, and you need to be prepared to answer questions about the activities for which you are responsible.=
Now, unfortunately, we have seen a situation where, as members will recall, I as= ked the Premier a number of questions during general debate on this supplementa= ry budget, and the Premier repeatedly dismissed those questions about departme= nts as being too detailed. He assured us that ministers would answer those questions yet, just as I predicted during debate with the Premier, when it actually comes down to getting into those details, the minister will tell us that they are not prepared to answer the question or that we shouldn’= t be asking it.
Ultima= tely, all of the questions that I have asked — all of the questions that my colleague, our Health and Social Services critic and the Leader of the Offi= cial Opposition, have asked — relate to the public’s money. It is the public’s business what this Liberal government chooses to do with the public’s money. They don’t get to invent new rules of debate and refuse to answer opposition questions abut their activities.
I thin= k the Premier seems to be saying off-mic that, yes, they do. Well, they can invent new rules all they want —
Some Hon. Member: (Inaudible)
Point of order
Chair: Mr.&n= bsp;Silver, on a point of order.
Hon. Mr. Silver: The member opposite can say whatever he wants, but we are over= here having a conversation. It has nothing to do with the diatribe that we are hearing from the member opposite.
Chair: Mr.&n= bsp;Cathers, on the point of order.
Mr. Cathers: On the point of order, the Premier didn’t cite a standing order. He did = use a word that has been ruled out of order in the past, and I am not sure how = he has come to the conclusion that it is a point of order. It simply seems to = be a case of the Premier being overly sensitive to legitimate criticism.<= /p>
Chair’s
ruling
Chair: For t= he time being, I’ll characterize this as a dispute among members.
Member= for Lake Laberge, please.
Mr. Cathers: So, I do point out that for anyone who is listening — when they hear the criticism from my colleagues and I about the manner in which the government= is choosing to refuse to answer questions, it is in part because this is a significant departure from past practice.
If min= isters are curious or if people listening are curious, they can look back to the time = when I was Minister of Health and Social Services or any of a number of departme= nts that I have been minister for and see the type of questions that were asked= and the wide range of responses that we provided in response to those questions= .
We unf= ortunately see again this situation where some of these questions have been asked by m= e, some have been asked by my colleagues, and some of it we have all asked. The response from the Premier and the response from his ministers is to tell us= why we either shouldn’t be asking the question or why they don’t ha= ve to provide that information.
The $5= .2-million cost overrun in this budget that we’re discussing this afternoon in Health and Social Services was not only illegal spending because it violated the Financial Administration Act, but in fact it’s the tip of the iceberg — is our understanding R= 12; in terms of increased spending within the Department of Health and Social Services.
We und= erstand that there has been money moved to cover cost overruns in a number of areas= . We asked a number of questions about it. We asked about lapses that we should = have seen in other departments. Unfortunately, the government’s response, = in refusing to answer the questions, certainly increases our suspicions and the suspicions of Yukoners who have contacted us with concerns about the activi= ties of this department and of the government as a whole.
When g= overnment will not provide information about where they spent the public’s money and it tries to use procedural obfuscation and delays to avoid providing an answer — including claiming that, while they would like us to pass the supplementary budget this afternoon, the minister said that she’ll provide information about it on Monday and refused to stand down and get a briefing and to get that additional information to provide to this House — Mr. Chair, whatever insults the government may wish to direct = in return, whatever dismissive rhetoric or talking points they may choose to employ, the litmus test that we believe Yukoners will apply to this is very simple: Is the question about something that the public has a right to know= ? If it is, the litmus test they will apply is: Did the government answer the question, or did they refuse to answer?
If the= y refuse to answer the question that we will ask — and indeed, the members will find that Yukon citizens will ask on the doorstep — is: What were you hiding? Why wouldn’t you provide that financial information to Yukone= rs?
I̵= 7;m going to touch on a few of the things that we asked previously. I’m also go= ing to ask about program changes that occurred in the 2019‑20 fiscal year — which, despite what the Premier has apparently told his ministers to say, are not off limits during debate. They are perfectly legitimate items = for discussion.
Again,= touching on one of the items raised by my colleague, the Official Opposition critic = for Health and Social Services, during debate — my colleague asked about = the $5.2 million cost overrun and noted that since the COVID‑19 pand= emic came into play in late March — which is the very tail end of this reporting period — it leaves us wondering what other things changed. = What changed that contributed to the cost overruns that could not be foreseen? Again, that was a question that my colleague asked yesterday.
We hav= e heard concerns. We mentioned in the past some of the things that we have heard fr= om Yukoners about government spending. Also, previously, when I was in debate = with the Premier, I asked him some questions — including about items that = were in the budget highlights for the 2019‑20 year, about projects the government initially bragged about — but the Premier bizarrely would = not provide me with a status update on what was occurring in those areas. This = is unfortunate.
Again,= quoting from the government’s own documents, we note that in 2019‑20, t= he Health and Social Services portion of the overall operation and maintenance budget for the government was 35 percent of O&M funding. The budget for 2019‑20 was $1.2 billion. For the largest overall increase, again, according to the document that we were handed at the budget briefing= a year and a half ago, Health and Social Services made up 35 percent of = that total. Despite being 35 percent of O&M spending, the government us= ed every procedural trick that it could in the spring of 2019‑20 to avoi= d us getting the opportunity to ask questions about two of the biggest departmen= ts in government — one of them being Health and Social Services and the other being Education — other than for a very small fragment of the t= otal time. In fact, they wasted more time on useless ministerial statements than= we spent debating 35 percent of the budget of the Yukon Territory.=
Some Hon. Member: (Inaudible)
Point of order
Chair: The H= on. Mr. Mostyn, on a point of order.
Hon. Mr. Mostyn: I am going to cite Standing Order 19(b) about speaking on a ma= tter other than the matter before the House right now.
Chair: Mr.&n= bsp;Cathers, on the point of order.
Mr. Cathers: This is the second day in a row that it seems that maybe the speaker on the Mini= ster of Highways and Public Works’ desk is not working. He is clearly not hearing what members are saying. I was directly talking about the budget fo= r 2019‑20 and the supplementary. The fact that the minister didn’t get the connection is (a) clearly not a point of order and (b) quite frankly bizarre that he didn’t get the connection.
Chair’s
ruling
Chair: I ten= d to agree with part (a) of Mr. Cathers’ submission.
You can continue, Mr. Cathers.
Mr. Cathers: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My poi= nt in talking about the supplementary estimate is that one of the challenges for = us as opposition — and without putting words in the Third Party’s mouth, I would assume that there is a challenge for them — is that in= the absence of detailed information about the matters that we are discussing, it leaves many unanswered questions.
That d= oes not mean that we know that the spending was inappropriate or went for purposes other than that to which we were originally told it would go — but in= the absence of information demonstrating what it went for, we are left with questions in this supplementary budget. Since it is dealing with the 2019= 8209;20 fiscal year, this is our opportunity to ask about whether government follow= ed through on the spending commitments that it made in the spring of 2019̴= 9;20 regarding this, and whether the government — and the additional amoun= ts that were added to it through the supplementary estimates throughout the ye= ar.
In the= spring of 2019‑20, we also had only 4.4 percent of the total time in the Assembly dedicated to this department and Education which, in total, compri= se some 50 percent of O&M spending, according to the government.
I̵= 7;m going to touch on another area that is an item within this budget that we’re left asking and wondering about — what the government’s results were in terms of completion. We know that, going back to the spring of 2018= in talking about the mental wellness hubs and the positions that government had created in the communities, the minister stated at the time that they had staffed seven out of 11 of those positions. We know that, in the comprehens= ive health review report that has just been issued, one of the issues highlight= ed by the panel is problems with recruitment and gaps in those mental wellness hubs.
Could = the minister please tell us how many mental wellness positions were in place in communities at the end of the 2019‑20 fiscal year and how many of tho= se positions were vacant, as well as how many of those positions during the fi= scal year were vacant at some point?
Hon. Ms. Frost: The question from the member has nothing to do with the supplementary, so IR= 17;m not sure what his objective is here. He went on ad nauseum about a number of things, and I’m trying to pin down what he’s asking me. He want= s to know numbers overall, FTEs, specifically related to the supplementary ̵= 2; is that the purpose of the question? Maybe he can help us to better underst= and what he’s asking for that is specifically related to the supplementary before us.
Mr. Cathers: As I mentioned to the minister and to the Premier, I reminded them of the fact that, despite the Premier’s attempt at writing new debate rules, in f= act, on budget bills, members have the opportunity to ask questions about the department’s spending, about policy issues, about program areas, and = so on. That is the primary opportunity that we have and that the Third Party h= as to ask those questions during any given year.
For th= e Premier and his ministers to stand and dismiss those questions and refuse to answer= is disappointing, to say the least. It is very telling in their attitude toward the public — that casual, autocratic attitude that they have where th= ey feel that they don’t need to answer questions if they don’t wan= t to answer the questions. Ultimately, this is the public’s money. It is t= he public’s business.
I aske= d the minister a question about one of their initiatives that they have touted fr= equently. The minister herself referred to the mental wellness hubs earlier today. The Premier kept bringing up the mental wellness hubs himself during debate, an= d so did the minister — as my colleague, the Member for Kluane, reminded me — but when we ask about it, the response basically boils down to suggesting that the topic is off limits and they don’t want to answer= it.
Mr.&nb= sp;Chair, as any Yukoner knows, there is a big difference between government not being able to answer the question and simply refusing to because they don’t want to. So, in the absence of the minister being willing to tell us how ma= ny of those mental wellness positions were actually staffed in the 2019‑= 20 fiscal year, it leaves us assuming that the truth must be embarrassing for = the government, because otherwise she could provide the information, demonstrat= ing that they have done what they said they would. But, in fact, it looks like = they issued the announcement, they talked about it repeatedly in their talking points, but we know, according to their own panel — their own hand-pi= cked panel on health review came back and said that there are gaps in those rural positions and that it continues to be a problem.
Mr.&nb= sp;Chair, as you know, at the tail end of this fiscal year that we are currently deba= ting and into the current fiscal year that we are now in, it contained the start= of the pandemic and a continuation of it. We know that, during that time perio= d, it has been tough on the mental health of a lot of Canadians, including Yukoners. We have seen national information suggesting that over half of Canadians are feeling more negative about life during the pandemic and have= had some mental health difficulties during that time. Pardon me — I think that the exact phrasing was that their mental health has declined during the pandemic.
The qu= estion of what government has actually done in terms of these mental wellness positio= ns versus what they said they would do is a very relevant one. It’s also= the public’s business.
I̵= 7;ll give the minister an opportunity again. Will she provide an answer to that quest= ion, or is she going to refuse to provide that information yet again?
Hon. Ms. Frost: I am happy to stand in the Legislative Assembly to inform Yuko= ners that this government is doing — well, I would say — a lot better than the previous government in terms of mental wellness supports across the Yukon.
The me= mber opposite is asking for specific numbers on how many staff we have in mental wellness supports. Exactly what they’re asking — they had two, = Mr. Chair — two supports — no counselling supports in our communities for social workers, no child psychologists — no supports.
The bu= dget before us today — with respect to the supplementary before us, I woul= d be happy to speak to that. The mental wellness supports and services across the Yukon expanded significantly. The high-quality, accessible, and consistent services and the access to services are there. We have four hubs, and the h= ubs were established to provide regional supports to our communities. We have expanded the scope of services to provide our staff the opportunity to prov= ide counselling to adults, children, youth, and families — mental wellness and substance use counsellors, relationship counselling, trauma counselling, and community supports and outreach.
The me= mber opposite refers to COVID‑19. Well, COVID‑19 has posed some significant challenges, as we know and as Yukoners know, so, of course, the scope of practice had to change. Like everything else that we were doing, o= ur world shifted significantly to a place where we had to look at virtual supp= orts and virtual care, yet these very critical and essential services were requi= red in our communities — associating the fact that we have children who a= re perhaps going through a very difficult time. We have families who are challenged and compromised as a result of COVID. The requirement to meet the demand on the ground and still provide the essential critical support meant that we had to put some adjustments in place.
The me= ntal wellness support unit — in terms of improving services but also adapt= ing services to ensure that we have Naloxone training and Naloxone kits in all = of our communities, knowing that we had an increase — a spike — in opioid overdoses. We also know that the complexities of mental wellness are clearly compromised in our communities right now during this time. Individu= als are compromised, their immunity is compromised, and their mental wellness is compromised. Currently, the Yukon has a great system. We have a great syste= m in place. We have 22 employees providing supports in all of our communities, working very closely with the Department of Education to ensure that we have wraparound supports for children and families.
As par= t of our extended family care agreements, Mr. Chair, that meant that we had to provide mental wellness supports for those families — families that w= ere neglected, families that were rejected and not supported historically. The whole business around reconciliation and repatriation that the previous gov= ernment neglected is not acceptable. We provided supports with mental wellness unit= s in all of our communities. We are expanding our home support program with our First Nation partners. We know that the First Nations have devolved some authority through their arrangements with the federal government. We don’t leave it there. We have expanded that. We are partnering with t= hem. We are partnering with our communities through our indigenous child services initiatives. We are working directly with our health commission table.
The de= partment is doing a really great job. I want to say that our work to enhance mental wellness and substance use services in Yukon aligns very well with the effo= rts about putting people first. This means that Yukoners had input into that. T= hey directed that we look at improvements and look at the determinants of health and look at the outcomes and look at improving social outcomes for the territory.
The bu= dget overall for Health and Social Services is $442,080,000. The difference in t= he budget for the supplementary is $74,000. As I understand it, for Public Accounts, that is usually rolled up and we don’t see the specifics. I said that I would bring the difference of the $74,000 on Monday. I would be happy to do that for the record.
With r= espect to mental wellness counselling — as we do with everything else in Health= and Social Services — it’s a massive department — and we do h= ave vacancies. The vacancies that we do have, we work very hard to fill those as quickly as we can.
We do = that in collaboration with our Public Service Commissioner and the staff at Health = and Social Services. We have to look at the complement we have within Health and Social Services so that we can look at some placements throughout so that we have some — the numbers that we have on the staff who cover off some = of the vacancies. We do use locum — we do locum positions like we do loc= um psychologists; we move them around where there’s a vacancy.
I know= for a fact that we have a shortage in my own community, and we moved in a tempora= ry support. The staff are really great that way, in terms of service delivery, ensuring that we fill the process through itinerant support. We do have cas= ual and temporary positions as well to cover these vacancies.
I want= to just assure the member opposite that no Yukon community is ever left without the support. In fact, if required in a situation where we need to bring in an emergency support team, we do that. We do that with our partners. That mean= s we bring in team members from other communities.
So ver= y flexible services — very flexible to say that the supports we have right now a= nd the staff are far and above what we had a few years ago, but they are very willing to work and are quite flexible, in terms of the outreach services a= nd the supports.
Mr. Cathers: I do appreciate that the minister did provide some information, but the speci= fic question I asked relating to how many vacancies there were in the mental he= alth positions that the government created in communities — the minister skated over that question.
I do h= ave to remind her that I know that she got those talking points from the Premier, = but when the Premier suggests that there were no mental health services or only= two positions previously, that is really very disrespectful to the work of Many Rivers, which provided mental health services for almost 50 years in Yukon communities. It’s really creating a false equivalency that’s misleading to Yukoners. So I would encourage them to actually reflect the w= ork that was previously done by that NGO and by the staff of that NGO, as well = as their volunteers — because, for almost 50 years, it was an important = part of serving Yukon communities.
I am g= oing to move on to a few other areas that related to the government’s perform= ance and follow through on their budget in the 2019‑20 fiscal year, includ= ing the question of health services in rural communities. Can the minister plea= se tell me: In the 2019‑20 fiscal year, how many physicians were under contract to provide doctor services to rural communities? Which communities were covered by those agreements and how many visits would be seen respecti= ve to each one of our Yukon communities under that arrangement?
Hon. Ms. Frost: I am just trying to get a breakdown on the question specific to physicians in our communities as it associates with the supplementary budget before us. I was just trying to determine whether the question was about whether there were resources made available for physicians and how that was covered off. But I understand that was for this fiscal year, so it is not captured in this particular budget — in this particular submission.= span>
For th= e benefit of responding, I think I want to just say that all of our communities are covered. In fact, we have now expanded the nurse practitioner program. We h= ave a physician in Haines Junction, Watson Lake, and Dawson City who provides support through itinerant services. So, the physicians travel to all of our communities.
Mr. Cathers: Yet again, the Premier’s new attempt at limiting debate through inventing= new rules on budget debate is just not going to fly here in this Legislative Assembly, nor would it have in the past with anyone else in opposition. In fact, if ministers had refused to answer this type of question, the Premier, when he was the Leader of the Third Party, would have been very quick to criticize ministers for not providing an answer to a question about what the public’s money was used for in that fiscal year.
The qu= estion that I just asked about the gaps in the number of mental health positions t= hat have been created but not filled — and the question that I asked about physicians under contract — is not a “gotcha” question in= any way, shape, or form. It’s one that relates directly to the health services available to Yukoners. As the minister knows very well, the Minist= er of Health and Social Services sees the contracts for rural physicians and w= ill be aware of what occurs. The minister has seen those contracts pass her desk and should be well aware of those services. It’s just a question about the health services available to Yukon families across the territory.
I̵= 7;ll ask the minister another simple question which is: In the 2019‑20 fiscal year, how many specialists — and I’m talking about physicians — were under contract with the government? What services were covered= by those contracts?
Moving= on to an area that is slightly different but very directly related and very relevant= to the government’s spending in the 2019‑20 fiscal year, what was = the wait-list for continuing care during the 2019‑20 fiscal year? I’= ;m talking about what its longest wait-list was, as well as what the shortest wait-list was for continuing care in that fiscal year.
Hon. Ms. Frost: Mr. Chair, the members opposite indicated that they’= ;re not going to pass the supplementary, but they want to ask specific questions about everything else. They won’t ask me specific questions about the supplementary budget. With respect to gaps in mental wellness supports, that’s in the supplementary request.
We tal= k about mental wellness and the supports there. I can speak about that. I can speak about the supports that were required and the adjustments that had to be ma= de.
Rural = physician costs — I know that Yukoners are covered very well. We have supports there.
With r= espect to wait-lists — I would be happy to answer that for the continuing care facilities. That is not in the supplementary request. Perhaps the member opposite wants to deviate his questions and move them back to the supplemen= tary estimates. I would be happy to answer questions there.
Mr. Cathers: The Liberals new attempted rules for debate unfortunately don’t line up w= ith the real rules for debate in the Assembly. We are going to continue to ask questions about spending. Again, Yukoners will judge this government by its= commitments to be more open and transparent and by its refusal to answer questions about the spending of the public’s money.
Not on= e of these questions that I have asked is about something that the minister can’t provide or that is privileged information in any way, shape, or form. The minister, just like the Premier before her, is simply choosing to refuse to answer these questions. It not only is not in keeping with the commitments = that they made to Yukoners about openness; it is a new level of secrecy here in = this territory. It’s really baffling why the government won’t even t= alk about the status of some of their own commitments.
I am g= oing to ask about one that I asked the Premier about previously, which is the statu= s of the secure medical unit project at the Whitehorse General Hospital. This is something that, in March 2019, the government was more than happy to talk a= bout in their budget highlights. The minister later in this Assembly actually ro= se and gave a ministerial statement about the project yet, since then, it has largely been crickets on the progress toward that. Perhaps the minister cou= ld tell us what the status of it is, whether the business plan and the operati= onal plan have been approved, and what the estimated capital costs and O&M c= osts are associated with that facility, and tell us again — even if she wa= nts to refuse to provide us answers past the end of March 2020 — what the status of that project is.
They p= ut it in the budget highlights. Why will they not tell Yukoners what the status is? Perhaps the minister will, but when I asked the Premier about the project, I didn’t really get an answer about it. I’m just checking Hansard from that day, but I believe that this was one of the ones that the Premier referred to as a very specific question and suggested that I should ask abo= ut it later when the minister rose.
Talkin= g points that don’t answer the question aren’t an answer. We’re ju= st asking for answers.
Hon. Ms. Frost: With respect to the secure medical unit at the hospital and the planning and the budget for that, nowhere in my notes from the department, specific to the supplementary request, does it cover that. At another time = and in general debate on our main budget, I would be happy to respond to the question around the secure medical unit and around the medical supports acr= oss the Yukon. The member opposite is suggesting perhaps that we’re not p= repared to do that; we certainly are.
I just= want to assure Yukoners that we have historically supported the Yukon Hospital Corporation. We are continuing to support all of our communities to ensure = that they are well-supported with mental wellness services and with physician services. We have brought into the Yukon additional supports to ensure that= we meet the needs of Yukoners — that we meet the critical, unique needs = of Yukoners that were not previously covered.
So, su= ggesting that we’re not doing something — we are doing a lot. We have th= ree pediatricians now in the Yukon. We historically didn’t have them. It means that children are now covered. We have three psychiatrists. That wasn’t here before. We have two orthopaedic surgeons. We’re now= looking at potentially a third surgeon. We have a physician in Haines Junction. We = have nurse practitioners. We are doing very well despite what the member opposit= e is trying to paint in terms of a picture of this government not doing the services.
I want= to just highlight that, in general debate, with respect to all of the great services that we have provided to Yukoners — everything that we’re doing= is intended to ensure that Yukoners’ needs are met. We have put in place, through our partnership initiatives, through the Housing First, Safe at Hom= e, aging in place, Putting People Firs= t, Child and Family Services Act r= eview, extended family care agreements, and mental wellness hubs — we have j= ust now entered into an agreement with Normandy place. We have the implementati= on of the aging in place. We are looking at a 47-unit facility.
We hav= e looked at additional supports to ensure that we have housing as a key priority wit= hin this government. So, suggesting that we are not doing something is, I belie= ve, absolutely not correct. The fact that we are now working with the Referred = Care Clinic — they are working, in fact, with the Sarah Steele facility and the Whitehorse Emergency Shelter, and we are working with our vulnerable population.
We hav= e supports in every one of our communities. We have nurse practitioners, and we have another one coming on very shortly. We are in the process of recruiting that individual. We have just now filled the midwifery coordinator position. We = are in the process of looking at two additional positions this year, and the department is quite progressive in moving forward in ensuring that we meet = the needs of Yukoners in all aspects of their life.
Mr. Cathers: It is really unfortunate here that the Liberals have chosen to come up with a = new set of rules that they have invented that restrict debate from beyond what = has been the past practice in decades of the history of this Legislative Assemb= ly where, in fact, the opportunity for members to ask questions about spending= and policy matters was during debate on budget bills. Despite what the Premier = and his minister would have this House believe, it has never been restricted to= the ability to ask questions about new appropriations. It is about policy, spen= ding in general, program activities, and so on and so forth. I have stood here m= any times in this Assembly and answered questions, as have my colleagues, about these types of matters, but now the Liberal government — which ran on being more open and transparent — is the most secretive government in Yukon history.
When e= ven my colleague, the Leader of the Third Party, is acknowledging that the Yukon P= arty provided more information with its budgets, even though she had some areas where she would have liked to have seen more information provided, she has identified — and in the interest of quoting her 100‑percent accurately — when the Leader of the NDP agrees with us that the information sharing was better under the Yukon Party than it is under this Liberal government, it is a damning testament to this Liberal government= 217;s pattern of increased secrecy and refusal to answer questions. Again, not on= e of the questions that I asked was about something that was privileged or that = they couldn’t answer.
The se= cure medical unit project was in the 2019‑20 budget. Is the minister telli= ng me that they didn’t spend any money on the project? If not, then it is one of the matters covered by the total dollar amount of this budget that they’re asking us to approve here after they broke the Financial Administration Act and s= pent money illegally.
The new appropriations, in a budget the size of Health and Social Services, are rea= lly just the tip of the iceberg. The real question is, where there were lapses = and vacancies, such as the substantial vacancies that appear to exist in the me= ntal health positions — when that money was not spent on personnel, the question becomes: What did it go to? We know that it has covered increased costs. We’ve heard reports from whistleblowers about what some of tho= se costs may be. Ultimately, the questions that I’ve this asked this afternoon are not “gotcha” questions. I’m asking for information about the public’s money. It is the Liberal government’s choice if they choose to stand and refuse to answer those questions.
WeR= 17;ve seen, with some of the questions, that we began with the Premier refusing to answer questions. He assured us that the Minister of Health and Social Serv= ices would answer questions, and now the Minister of Health and Social Services = is refusing to answer some of the same questions.
She wa= nts us to clear this budget even though she hasn’t provided information that bo= th the Official Opposition and the Third Party have asked for. She has told us that she’ll give us the information on Monday, and yet they want to c= lear this budget this afternoon. The $5.2-million increase, though illegal itsel= f, is just the tip of the iceberg.
We wan= t to know about the other activities — some of them where money was reallocated= to but also questions about what the government was doing in important program= areas. Another one that I’ll ask about is family supports for children with disabilities. I know that this program, if I understand correctly, has been renamed. I would also appreciate it if the minister could tell us what has changed in terms of the scope of the program, including the number of famil= ies served and the types of supports being provided. Again, it’s a very reasonable question about what the government is or isn’t doing for Y= ukon families and for children with disabilities.
Will t= he minister answer that question or is that another one she’s going to simply refuse to provide us with information on?
Hon. Ms. Frost: For the record, I would be happy to respond to questions relat= ing to the appropriation before us. The member opposite is speaking about new appropriations specific to the overall budget. I certainly indicated earlier that the budget for Health and Social Services is in excess of $440 mi= llion.
We are= here to discuss the appropriation before us, and the questions around disability and services for disability — I would be happy to respond to that during general debate. Right now, I have provided specific details to the floor ar= ound how the supplementary requests are broken down. If the member opposite would like me to go into that to refresh his memory with respect to what was cove= red with the budget, I would be happy to do that. Then I can respond to the questions specific to the appropriation.
Mr. Cathers: Well, Mr. Chair, the minister just said that she would be happy to answer th= ose questions in general debate. We are in general debate, and the minister is = not answering the questions.
You kn= ow, Mr. Chair, it really is unfortunate that this Liberal government is choosing to refuse= to answer questions that they have the information to answer — or they c= an easily get the information to answer those questions. This is the public’s money that we are talking about. This is the public’s Department of Health and Social Services. Every activity and every dollar s= pent is the public’s business.
We are= not asking for the minister to break down every dollar and every cent spent on every item. We are asking for the high-level amounts, including things that= the government included in their budget highlights. What is really puzzling is = why they won’t answer the question — unless they have something to hide. If they have something to hide, we want to know what it is and Yukone= rs do as well.
I aske= d about the wait-list for continuing care. Again, we would like that information as= to how it was applied during the year. I do have to remind the minister that s= he indicated that they have consistently supported the Yukon Hospital Corporat= ion. That is not what the facts show. This government had an appalling record at= the start of its mandate of not meeting the hospital’s needs and, indeed,= in some years — according to the information we were given at budget briefings — they didn’t meet the hospital’s needs until t= he next fiscal year.
I am g= lad that they seem to have corrected that pattern this year — but just like wi= th NGOs, the government can write a talking point saying that they have a great record, but the record is completely different. With NGOs — we know t= hat there have been a number that have had a very frustrating relationship with this government, including during the 2019‑20 fiscal year, when there were issues with NGOs and their funding. A number were frozen by the govern= ment for a while. They didn’t receive the increases they needed, and that included the Yukon Women’s Transition Home, among others. The Child Development Centre is another one that was having difficulty — one of= our longest serving and very competent, capable NGOs — which had a great = deal of difficulty getting the government to support their needs and to recognize them.
Mr.&nb= sp;Chair, while we may ask questions that the minister or the Premier feel are tough, they are all questions about the public’s money and the spending of t= he 2019‑20 fiscal year. The government seems to have made a choice that they don’= ;t want to answer any questions about spending in 2019‑20 and they just = want to talk about new announcements and going forward, but that’s not a reasonable choice on the part of government.
When w= e’re asking about spending the public’s money, the question is: Why does t= he public duly-elected government — a government that ran claiming that = they were going to be open and transparent — why won’t they just ans= wer the question?
I̵= 7;ll ask another question about the youth mental health workers who were — previously, there was an indication that they would visit Yukon communities= to work with residents. Could the minister indicate what the status of that is? What services are they providing?
I woul= d also move on to another area and ask about the orthopaedics program at the hospi= tal. We know that the last time that we saw a supplementary estimate from the government, the changes — based on the period 7 changes — we had the indication that one orthopaedic surgeon had started in 2018 and one in September of 2019. Can the minister tell us what the status was? How many surgeries were performed during the 2019‑20 fiscal year?
Hon. Ms. Frost: There is certainly lots to reflect on with respect to supports= and lots to reflect on with respect to historical matters, as the member opposi= te perhaps wants to remind us about. Certainly, I am fully aware that these are the public’s Health and Social Services. This is a department that provides people services to Yukoners. I am fully aware of that. I am aware = of my obligations. I am aware of my obligations and I am aware of the mandate = that I have been given, and that is to ensure that rural Yukon communities are no longer neglected, that families are no longer neglected, and that we don’t apprehend children and burst our group homes at the seams becau= se we apprehend children. We don’t have 400 children in care anymore. We have moved those children back to their communities. We have done that to d= ignify and respect our families.
That i= s very important — and to just gently remind the member opposite how the previous government treated the communities — how they treated the indigenous communities specifically. I would say that it wasn’t very = well with respect to Health and Social Services and equity and transparency of supports.
I thin= k that it is important, as we look at supporting our communities — it is vitally important to know that we respect our funding partners. Respecting our fund= ing partners means that we need to look at working with them. Of course, the NGO community is a significant part of how we deliver services. The government can’t deliver all of the services, so we rely on our non-governmental organizations to deliver on those services for us. We do that through direct transfer payments and the transfer payment agreements define the scope of service delivery and some of the models that we need to look toward. Of cou= rse, there have to be checks and balances and reviews as we go — so we did that, and we continue to do that with our funding partners. Of course, they= are obligated to participate in that process because those are also public fund= s.
As we = look at the supports that we provide to our NGO communities and our partners — they have received increases — at least the NGOs that we are responsi= ble for have. The member opposite obviously knows a bit about NGOs because he h= as raised it a number of times. There are well over 700 NGOs across the Yukon,= and 30 of those fall within Health and Social Services. We have reviewed and we= are working with our partners to ensure that we align with the needs of our communities very succinctly in terms of ensuring that we provide supports to our care centres. There is a requirement for us to do that, as we have done= through our coordination and through our supplementary request, and the supplementa= ry request speaks about health services in many aspects. Yukoners are more interested in programs and services delivered in their communities on their doorsteps. Rather than having multiple barriers in front of them, we want to see those barriers removed and we want to see quick access to services.
Amidst= COVID‑19, we had to make some quick adjustments. We had to make adjustments with our partners. That means we had to work with our health centres. We had to work with the chief medical officer of health. We also had to work very closely = with our indigenous communities and our municipalities to align with their essen= tial core needs so that we can protect Yukoners. That is what this supplementary request is really about. It’s about ensuring that the Emergency Coordination Centre was set up and responsive so that we can deliver appropriate and succinct messaging to Yukoners in terms of how we respond a= nd where the services are. Where do I go? What about contact tracing? How do we protect the lives of Yukoners? That is still very much active and it will b= e so for some time. That is what this supplementary request is about.
ItR=
17;s about
ensuring that the extended family care agreements are active now and into t=
he
future. It’s not about how we can put all of the funding into our gro=
up
homes, build more group homes, and put our children in these centres, remov=
ing
them from their families and removing them from their communities.
In ter= ms of virtual care and essential care during times of extreme challenges, it̵= 7;s important that we look at alternatives. Adapting on the move to ensure virt= ual care was readily available on the ground for physicians and for nurses R= 12; that the physicians can still correspond and collaborate with their patients — it is what we’ve learned from this exercise and the significa= nce of the 1Health initiative and virtual care and what it means about a virtual platform. Have we learned something from this exercise that will lead us in= to long-term planning and initiatives for the department in collaboration with Highways and Public Works? We’ve learned a lot about what it means to= be responsive and adaptive in a very short time.
That a= llows us to now focus more on expediting the services — expediting the service= s to our communities. As we know, that was very difficult, especially in my community of Old Crow. Connectivity is not the best; it’s a little sl= ow.
The fa= ct that we couldn’t bring patients in and out of the hospital without some measu= res in place — so we had to work with the community health centres. That’s part of this supplementary request. The member opposite is suggesting that perhaps we’re not being forthright in terms of sharing and answering questions. I said that I would answer or respond to the questions, and I’m prepared to do that — specific to the supplementary request.
The me= mber opposite wants to go all over the place. I would be happy to respond to tha= t at the appropriate time. As we’re standing here in the Legislative Assem= bly to speak about the supports that we provided during this time, why we went = over the appropriation, and why we spent more resources on licensed childcare centres to keep them open so essential workers could get to work so that we= can help the health professionals at work providing services to our Yukoners — suggesting that we’re not serious about this — of cours= e we are. I am serious about this. I know that the Department of Health and Soci= al Services is critical, it’s essential, and it provides essential servi= ces to Yukoners.
Now, t= he emergency shelter — we’ve spoken a lot about that. The member opposite obviously is not supportive of that centre because he’s made some pretty inappropriate comments about the centre, and I think that’= ;s very disrespectful for the clientele and the staff. I think that the centre= is necessary. It is what it is. Where it was built was not anything that I had control over or that this government had control over. The previous governm= ent built this building where it’s situated, and we had to adapt and try = to be responsive. Is it ideal? It isn’t ideal. It’s impacting the businesses, it’s impacting the clientele, and it’s not built appropriately for its intended purpose.
During= COVID‑19, we realized that very quickly. All of a sudden, we had 80 people in the facility, but the facility is only built to accommodate 25 beds for a shelt= er, so we had to make adjustments very quickly to ensure that we followed the &= #8220;safe six” practices, as recommended by Dr. Hanley. That meant that we= had to bring in alternative adjustments and services.
Was th= at perfect? No, it wasn’t perfect, but we have learned something from th= at exercise. We have learned that the building, as it was built by the Yukon P= arty government with the Salvation Army, was not built appropriately to meet the needs of that clientele and that group of individuals who need critical and essential services.
To sta= nd here and lecture us about not delivering on services is not acceptable. I do bel= ieve that every Yukoner — no matter where they reside, no matter their ethnicity, no matter their gender — requires support by Health and So= cial Services. Individuals who are required to travel outside of the Yukon for intense medical treatment sometimes require an escort. We have to be able to accommodate that.
Right = now, during COVID‑19, we have seen immense pressures everywhere, bursting = at the seams, trying to get services to the hospitals in the south where they = are also intensely challenged by COVID‑19 and hospital beds are maxed out, but they’re still required to provide services through a mutual agree= ment with the Government of Yukon.
I want= to just say: Did we learn something from that? We learned a lot from that exercise.= We learned that we couldn’t rely on one specific resource centre, and us= ing the St. Paul’s facility as the only centre or the cancer clinic in BC — we had to look at alternatives. That means we now need to look at o= ther service centres to better align with service needs.
Will t= hat impact and affect the budget in the future? We’ll see services reducing beca= use we have brought more supports here, but we will also see the cost reducing because we now have better service delivery mechanisms.
We can= go to Prince George. We can go to the Okanagan for supports. Some of these have already been negotiated and agreed upon. We have Victoria also. We have the= Air North services that go on a daily basis, and we now have alternative routes. Have we learned anything from this exercise of going through the supplement= ary process? I have learned a lot, the department has certainly learned a lot, = and this government has learned a lot about what we can do differently during t= hese difficult times, but we also recognize that the budget was never there to support the extended families or the grandmothers and grandfathers who take care of their children. Why? Because they took the children away. They never had an opportunity to transition the children, repatriate, put them back in= to their communities, and make them whole again. That never happened.= p>
To sta= nd here and suggest that I am not prepared to respond to the questions and suggest = that I am not respecting a process — I am absolutely respecting all Yukone= rs. I am respecting the process that has been established for us — and the fact that we, as a government, have taken that to the next level. The next level is that we are listening to Yukoners, and we are not in litigation to= get our collaborated approaches enhanced or supported. We are communicating very respectfully with our communities to better meet their needs. That means th= at Watson Lake will get a shelter. It means that we will look at communities t= hat are marginalized — those that haven’t been supported. Families = will be supported.
Mr.&nb= sp;Chair, I could continue, but I understand that we are near the end of the day and = move that you report progress.
Chair: It has been moved by Ms. Frost that the Chair report prog= ress.
Motion agreed to
Hon. Ms. McPhee: I move that the Speaker do now resume the Chair.
Chair: It ha= s been moved by Ms. McPhee that the Speaker do now resume the Chair.
Motion agreed to
Speaker resumes the Chair
Speaker: I w= ill now call the House to order.
May th= e House have a report from the Chair of Committee of the Whole?
Chair’s
report
Mr. Hutton: Mr. Chair, Committee of the Whole has considered Bill No. 204, entitled Fourth Appropriation Act 2019‑20= , and directed me to report progress.
Speaker: You= have heard the report from the Chair of Committee of the Whole.
Are yo= u agreed?
Some Hon. Members: Agreed.
Speaker: I d= eclare the report carried.
Hon. Ms. McPhee: I move that the House do now adjourn.
Speaker: It = has been moved by the Government House Leader that the House do now adjourn.<= /p>
Motion agreed to
Speaker: Thi= s House now stands adjourned until 1:00 p.m. on Monday.
The House adjourned at 5:26 p.m.
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